AIBU to not force DD5 to use other child's preferred pronouns?

[Craziesareoutinfullforce]

So today I picked up DD5 from school and her teacher told me that my DD had asked a little boy in the playground why he was wearing a dress. He said it's because he is a girl, and my DD, confused, disputed this and said "but you are a boy", which has of course upset him and now my DD is in trouble. Apparently he went to the teacher and she pulled my DD aside and said what she said was unkind and she needs to respect how other people describe themselves.

My DD has ASD and has only recently become verbal, school are well aware of this and she has an EHCP outlining her communication difficulties, with her mental age being approx 3 years old (in terms of where she is with development). My argument was that she has additional needs and has zero concept of transgenderism so she was not to know, and was also in no way unkind as she was asking a genuine question and not trying to be nasty. I imagine any 5 year old would be confused by this? I think if you asked a NT 5yo to use preferred pronouns they likely would, but still don't feel anybody should be forced into doing this or face punishment.

I did also say to the teacher that this is not something that is encouraged at home and we have never spoken about it. She told me that they are an inclusive school and everybody is to be accepted, and that from now on DD must use his preferred pronouns and call this boy 'she/her', she had said this to my DD at the time and she got upset because "that's not right" (my DDs words). I told her that I will not be enforcing this and will contact the LA regarding the matter should they pursue it in future, given that they are point blank disregarding DD's ND and EHCP, essentially.

Aibu here? I expect to get hate for this, and I'm really not trying to encourage any phobia regarding trans people, it is just not something I accept or feel comfortable with or encourage. I would never attack someone for being this way etc., but just feel nobody should be forced into calling a boy a girl and vice versa when they are clearly not. It feels really unfair and frankly bizarre that my 5 year old with ND is being penalised for calling a boy a boy. I don't think I need to take this any further but unsure what to do if anything happens regarding this in future? I did mention above I would contact LA but would they take the same stance as the school? I have emailed the headteacher about it but he has not yet replied. Please help, feeling stuck and idk if I'm in the wrong or not.

Science has repeatedly shown that the brain and genitals develop at different times, and that it has shown through brain scans this is the case, and that sometimes this doesn't match.

Then that's great news for the trans community. A simple brain scan can prove a male person has a female brain.
So why aren't TW queuing up to get such proof, when it would surely settle the gender debate for good?
Funny that.

Oh dear, you really have been misled.

There are only two sexes. In what way can someone’s genitals not “match” their brain?

Are there other organs that can develop in a way that don’t “match” genitals?

Non-binary kidney anyone?

The development of the entire body is a long and complex process, I’m not sure what you think the relevance of timings are here.

But the studies actually show that people who believe themselves to be trans do not have brains that lie outside of the norms of their sex. And these studies have not controlled for sexuality or hormone usage

Trans, at 5, no. This is not ‘anti-trans’. It’s asking the school to not condemn OP’s DC for stating what they see.

I've no idea what activists say.

My knowledge is based on my MSc from a top university in which it was a topic in one of the modules. I work in STEM. I'm not interested in pseudoscience. I don't develop my opinions on my personal bias or issues, I look to science.
If I hear something I don't believe or ignorant on, I will look into it using high quality peer reviewed scientific research at length, until I can prove or disprove my opinion. I am a scientist and that is how my brain works.

I think if I were the school I’d be calling the boy’s parents in to explain what the heck they’re playing at, and refer them to social services. Allowing a five year old to think they’re the opposite sex is ridiculous.

I have explained. It sounds like it's beyond your understanding, and that's ok.

I completely agree with you. They absolutely should be utilising this, particularly if determining using toilets, changing rooms etc. I would be absolutely in favour of this. Likewise, I would be in favour of using it to determine whether body modification should take place, particularly on the NHS.

I'm assuming people aren't interested in funding it and it's become political.

Either way, we are simply talking about a 5yo wanting to be referred to in a certain way. I think it should be encouraged for children to respect what someone's asking to be referred as, but I don't think kids should be punished for getting it wrong. Children who are ND may well find this difficult and should be given grace. However, I disagree with adults deliberately encouraging children to go against this for no reason other than because they don't believe in it.

Exactly. You should write to them and state their statutory duty, and that you hope they are aware this extends to your dd as well as any other children, and they are aware through her diagnosed condition, her EHCP, that she finds this kind of situation very difficult, but they are prioritising this other child’s belief over dds condition and that’s failing to meet their statutory duty towards your child. If there is a conflict in trying to meet their duty towards multiple students then they will need to work out a plan which is not allowed to include telling my barely verbal child off for being unkind. She is not being unkind, she is working very hard every second she is in school to make sense of what is going on and needs your support, as per her EHCP plan. I’d like a follow up conversation on this too please as well as a written response, as I’m quite upset that your staff just tear up diagnoses and support plans and throw them out the window because there’s another child turned up that they seem to think is a bigger priority.

kind regards.

I also work in stem. I am unaware of this high quality peer reviewed research. I have seen some badly done with too small samples, inherent bias and terrible controls.

"I completely agree with you. They absolutely should be utilising this, particularly if determining using toilets, changing rooms etc. I would be absolutely in favour of this. Likewise, I would be in favour of using it to determine whether body modification should take place, particularly on the NHS."
When you said your qualification was in science, you meant science fiction right?

That's okay. I wouldn't expect the average person to know this.

If it hadn't come up while studying I probably would be ignorant too. There's lots of things I don't know much about, so I tend not to give my opinion on those.

What I do know, is true trans in the manner I am describing, is rare.

I just think it's entirely possible for people to simply respect requests as best they can, whether they believe it or not.
Who am I to say whether or not it's true for that person? It's not really for me to decide.

If someone finds their ND child simply cannot compute this nuance despite trying to understand it, then they certainly shouldn't be punished.

The conversation could go - I know xyz used to be referred to as a boy and now they're wearing a dress and want to be called she/her, and I get that this can be confusing. They feel it's really important to them that we use this language of she/her. Could you give it a go and see how you get on? If you make a mistake or you find it really hard, I won't force you and I will fight anyone who wants to punish you, but how do you feel about trying it?

Child then may say
A) no it's too confusing, I can't make sense of it and it frustrates and stresses me out.
B) I'll give it a go but I'm worried I'll be punished again if I get it wrong.

Or some variation of the above or completely different.

Let's not forget, lots of people think ND is absolute rubbish and just a label to excuse bad behaviour, and we expect as adults to encourage our children to be compassionate. And maybe sometimes it is, just as maybe sometimes the trans stuff is just the parents pushing it. I just don't think it's unreasonable to teach tolerance.

I can explain it to you, I can't make you understand it.

That brain scan thing has been debunked as it didnt allow for sexual orientation. Noone is born in the wrong body

You think we should separate toilet use by brain scan results? What exactly do you think the purpose of having separate male and female toilets is?

This doesn’t seem standard practice. Why are you doing something that upsets her?

It is possible for me to disagree that you are a llama and yet still have the courtesy to address you as a llama. I would be being courteous to you, not indulging you. Indulging you would be saying “you are definitely a llama and I am going to get the food that llamas like and find a field for you to live in.”

First post nails it.

And you think a 5 year old boy wearing a dress for a day constitutes social transitioning @ThreadGuardDog ?

You need to connect in with groups like Transgender Trend, Sex Matters and the Safe Schools Alliance. The school and local authority will be against you, but the law since Forstater is on your side. People are not compelled to use any specific pronouns in the UK.

But ND children need social conventions to be general and not specific to one person.

It's easy to tell them "never say that a fat person is fat because it hurts their feelings".
Harder to teach them that "some boys do not want to be boys and are therefore girls". Like magically transforms into what they want to be.

I think I got a very "male" brain then. Don't notice if someone has had a haircut. Hate shopping and home decorating. Don't wear makeup if it's not for special occasions. Never done my nails, have no skin routine and wear dresses only because it's comfortable and I don't have the inclination to think of what goes with what. Own one handbag because don't see the point in having more.

When younger liked to play football and climb trees. Never played with dolls and hated dresses.

Am I a male? No I'm definitely a female who is not into traditional female stuff. But I suppose I would have been groomed into believing I was a boy if I had grown up now.

I actually think the school has handled the basic principle correctly, although of course they need to take your DD’s ASD and developmental level into account in how they explain it to her.
The other child didn’t approach your DD and ask her to believe anything. Your DD approached them and asked why they were wearing a dress. The child answered her. Your DD then contradicted them. I completely accept that, given her additional needs, she may genuinely not have understood why that was upsetting and had absolutely no intention of being unkind. But that doesn’t mean the school shouldn’t teach her that it isn’t appropriate.
There are lots of things children may observe about other people that may be factually true. We still teach them that they don’t get to walk up to someone and announce or dispute things about them simply because they believe themselves to be correct.
If a child walked up to an overweight classmate and repeatedly commented on their weight, I wouldn’t say “but they’re only stating a fact”. If another child told your DD “you’re autistic” or “you’re mentally challenged” after she’d asked them to stop, I doubt you’d consider that acceptable simply because the child believed the description to be accurate.
Her ASD changes how this should be dealt with; it doesn’t mean other children have to accept comments that upset them.
And I don’t think your DD needs to understand transgender identity, let alone be “forced to believe” anything. At five, the lesson can be much simpler: this is what this child wants to be called; you don’t need to debate it with them; be kind and get on with playing.
I’d actually be much more concerned if the school punished your DD despite knowing she couldn’t understand what she’d done. But explaining that her words upset another child and teaching her what to do differently next time seems entirely appropriate. and surely that’s part of what school is for.