Pen licence - Year 3

[whatk8ydid]

Morning all, was hoping to get a hive mind view on this - particularly from either primary school teachers or those with primary age children.

My 7 year old is in Year 3. His school apparently have "pen licences" - which I'd never heard of before. When their writing is deemed "neat enough" by whatever subjective criteria they use, they are given a pen licence and are allowed to use pen instead of pencil to write with.

He, and quite a few others in his class, feel quite disheartened and "not good enough". I think about a fifth have a pen licence so far.

DS is normally a pretty robust little thing, it's not often his injustice mode is activated but he's really quite sad about this. Last week I decided the whole pen thing was bloody nonsense, sent him in with a pen and wrote a note in his reading diary saying that as he is left handed, he finds it easier and neater to write with a pen rather than a pencil and as such had sent him in with one, and to contact me if there were any issues with this.

Yesterday, I received an email from his teacher - 7 paragraphs of clearly AI formulated text which didn't actually address any of the issues or explain what he is doing with a pencil that can't be done with a pen, or what objective rather than subjective criteria needs to be met. This has annoyed me further. Everything I've read online says that pen licenses are outdated, aren't part of the curriculum, and put dyspraxic/left handed children at a disadvantage as they end up having less time to practice writing with a pen in comparison to their peers.

I think as far as parents go, we have pretty easy to meet expectations. There have been a few annoyances along the way but we've broadly speaking let them go - as in we're not those parents that are emailing once a week, or catching the teacher "just quickly" at the end of the day (and delaying everyone else by doing so). I've approached it from a trust the school to do their job, and we'll do ours at home sort of way. So I'm not sure whether this is just the straw that broke the camels back and that's why it feels such a big issue. I could do with a bit of a sense check on how hard to push on this one issue.

Apologies in advance - I'm at work today so may not be able to keep up with the thread in real time.

YABU - let the school do what works for them and don't interfere

YANBU - nothing changes if nobody challenges systems that are outdated and no longer fit for purpose

Have they seen the average doctor's writing? Some people will always have messy handwriting, no matter how much they practice.

I remember being so embarrassed about being the last child to get a pen licence that I bought my own red berol handwriting pen in from home and refused to write with anything else. I was usually one of the best behaved kids so the teacher just let it slide.

My main reason for thinking YABU is how you approached it. You didn't "challenge the system", as far as I can tell, but instead tried to override the system. I think contacting the school and expressing your concern, as well as pointing to the lack of effectiveness of pen licences based on past research, would have less of a "that parent" vibe.

I find the whole writing with pens very odd. I taught in many schools in Scotland and primary pupils never wrote with pens.

My cousin's daughter was so excited because she'd got her Pen Licence buf I'd no idea what she meant.

I thought pen licenses were normal. I got one at school and my DS and nephew (different schools) both did. Children achieve things at different rates and some people are better at some things than others, just look at some doctors hand writing. DS has SEN so is years behind at school but has very neat handwriting. He was one of the first in class to get his and very proud. It gives children something different to work towards.

YANBU, I am left handed and suffered this nonsense 30 years ago, can’t believe they’re still doing it.

I think it's fine to challenge these things but I think the way you've done it will have reinforced that it's a really important thing which might cause your son more stress in the long run. My DD is in Y6 and dyslexic and she's never achieved the pen licence each year. I've always emphasised how unimportant it is and that she can pick and choose what competitions she joins in with in school, this doesn't need to be one of them. She has loads of pens and pencils to write with at home and now agrees pencil is better for schoolwork anyway as it's much easier to correct her mistakes. Teachers get lost in the detail of their classroom management strategies and I'm sure it has some use for a large group but it's irrelevant for my DD so we just ignore it. As a parent I see it as my job to give my kids a different perspective from school so they don't take it too seriously.

My son is 20 and I cant remember if his school did pen licences- some other schools did. It seems very outdated as when children go to high school, they definitely all write with pens (or use a computer!).
I think you should take this higher than the teacher - the head and possibly the governors.
I find it astonishing that schools are obsessed with cursive writing, surely the aim is to get legible handwriting in whatever style suits.
Good luck with your challenge.

The response from the school only deals with the fact that your son still needs to write in pencil. It doesn’t say anything about the need to create competition and separation via the existence of a pen licence. If a kid needs a pencil, give them a pencil. If they need a pen, give them a pen. There are all sorts of academic differences in school. Doesn’t mean they need to create a maths licence or a reading licence to point out which children have reached certain milestones first.

Both my kids had to 'earn' their pen licence in Y3. I've always parented them with the positive values that were instilled in my childhood at the forefront; this means trying to ensure they don't sweat the small stuff and understand that you'll not always achieve the same things as others, or at the same time. That's life. There is an element of resilience to gained here by helping them to not be concerned or worried about it, rather than reinforcing the child's perceived inadequacies.

I haven't read every page, but I noticed that @wiredandtired suggested getting a special pen for use at home, and it reminded me that when I was still teaching, we encouraged just such a thing, Staedler (one example, others are probably available) made what we called "banana pens", built with a curve that fitted the hand when in correct position, with two indentations, one for the thumb and one for the index finger, which steered the digits into the right place. The "leftie" pen was grey and orange adorned with an "L", the "rightie", two shades of blue marked with an "R" to make them readily distinguishable. I'm right-handed myself, and found the blue ones really comfortable.
If you had some of these at home, you could probably help his development so that he can see for himself that he is progressing, licence or not!
Incidentally, my own DM was left-handed, with lovely handwriting. Unbelievably. she attended a primary school considered very "go-ahead" back in the day for letting left-handed children write with their left hand, and didn't even punish them!

This sort of rubbish is why my children don’t go to state schools anymore.

Some kids with poor hand writing will find a pen easier as it flows better, it’s just poor teaching and trying to shoe horn everyone into a box.

I had awful writing at school (likely undiagnosed dyspraxia and hyper mobility) and I was the only child not allowed to use a pen, it was just another thing that made me feel different and stupid.

As I say to my kids, you need to be able to write so people can read a form you’ve filled in or a quick note or birthday card but writing in neat cursive is not the be all and end or nor will it dictate how well you do in life.

One of mine was below the first percentile for motor skills and they offered no help what so ever beyond reception where they did an extra pen workmanship book with a TA

Ah yes, if only I'd parented more resilience and positive values into my autistic daughter, she'd have been fine about the pen licence. 🙄

I wonder how many teachers, maybe including your son's teacher, who find themselves on the end of a parent's opinion as to why policy should be changed or their child treated differently, feel like saying,

" If you don't like what's on offer-bugger off and teach him yourself."

Doctors, dentists, lawyers-for the most part-don't seem to have to deal with those who think they know better, especially the type who are barely literate but have a big opinion of themselves.

I think it happened when teachers shot themselves in the foot by allowing themselves to be treated as non professionals and it's about them they fought back.

I'm not a teacher but, my goodness, I can't see my teachers ever accepting the crap that they are supposed to put up with nowadays.

Other schools-offering free education- are available and of course, you have the option of paying for his education or educating him yourself.

so because one child is unable to accomplish something, we should remove the requirement from the entire curriculum?

Of course not but pen license s pedagogically questionable and arguably discriminative. Is it an incentive? Not really as those with good handwriting just get it. Why not just TEACH them good handwriting, practice, work at home and some cases, waiting until they are a bit older. Why should you not write with a normal pen while practicing.

My SEN child never ever received a pen licence. She couldn't grip a pen properly and still has appalling handwriting at 17.

She is however, highly intelligent.

School pen licences are ableist nonsense that need to get in the bin along with attendance awards.

I get that it seems a bit outdated but as an ex educator I kinda get the holding back element at that age.

Not saying your son isn't ready for a pen BUT I do know the absolute ball ache that is desks covered in ink due to doodlers and pen chewers!

I would guess that the system works on both encouraging kids to work on their writing AND on classroom maintenance.

As for the perceived 'two-tier', pen-havers vs pencil-users issue, my advice would be to settle in. Primary Mums can be awfully competitive over reading levels, spelling tests and times tables!

There will be kids who run ahead and that's OK.

If I were you I'd play it down with DS and get him to do more practice at home so he soon has a pen and can enjoy his achievement.

As for the AI - that all read as standard teacher communication style to me,. Nothing grammatically difficult or irrelevant there, IMO.

When there's a growing body of evidence that an 'incentive' such as this doesn't actually determine the underlying cause of poor handwriting, nor achieve the desired outcome, then absolutely we should question the effectiveness of it, yes. All kinds of things that were common practice in classrooms years ago are now considered obsolete for this reason.

The teacher’s right. He needs to practice with a pencil to get everything formed in the right way before moving on. My son is neurodiverse (adhd and dyspraxia) and had the same problem. But sometimes in life, things are harder for some kids than others. Doesn’t mean that there isn’t the same objective standard to meet.
oh and don’t assume that just because you don’t understand the objective measures, that they don’t exist.

Pedagogically, I think you're right. But you were wrong to send your son in and announce he's to use a pen from now on. That undermines the teachers authority to run their classroom as they and the school wish.

Several PP have given examples where parents have presented current evidence on whether children benefit from being made to reach a set standard before using a pen, and the pros and cons to this approach. Booking a meeting to have that conversation with the teacher and the head of KS, and asking them if they'll look at the evidence and reconsider was the way forward.

I also think the teacher's email was very clear. Your DS isn't consistently forming and joining letters correctly and the school wants them to demonstrate this in pencil before they use pen (presumably because correcting in pencil is easier - you can rub out). Whether or not this is sound pedagogy is up for debate, but it's certainly not unclear or not objective.

This.

And it is shaming, it just is, lots of connotations, useless, clumsy, untidy, unacademic (ha!), immature. Feeling like the immature one in your peer group, not grown up enough to use a proper adult pen as your peers really matters especially in year 3 when social influence and hierarchies start to matter, this is a really crappy 'incentive'

Fine, then it shouldn't be called pen licence. Just give those for whom it's beneficial to write with a normal pen a pen. Don't turn it into some milestone which many simply can only achieve later due maturing at different rates. Year 3 many have just moved from infants to junior and then not getting that coveted license makes them feel they are not good or 'big' enough.

How do we ever expect children to learn or teachers to teach if we have parents continually meddling?

Just let them get on with it at school and parent your child at home. Your responsibility is to make your child practice, practice, practice to get his pen not to override the rules. Awful parenting.

It isn't conducive to learning and should be scrapped.

My 17 year old was in the car the other day discussing pen licenses with his friends, none of them got theirs and they are all bitter. Yet suddenly come year 7 they were all allowed to use whatever pen they fancied!! Now when they start they all have laptops and barely touch a pen.

this won’t help your son, but solidarity for this bollocks that still going on.