Pen licence - Year 3

[whatk8ydid]

Morning all, was hoping to get a hive mind view on this - particularly from either primary school teachers or those with primary age children.

My 7 year old is in Year 3. His school apparently have "pen licences" - which I'd never heard of before. When their writing is deemed "neat enough" by whatever subjective criteria they use, they are given a pen licence and are allowed to use pen instead of pencil to write with.

He, and quite a few others in his class, feel quite disheartened and "not good enough". I think about a fifth have a pen licence so far.

DS is normally a pretty robust little thing, it's not often his injustice mode is activated but he's really quite sad about this. Last week I decided the whole pen thing was bloody nonsense, sent him in with a pen and wrote a note in his reading diary saying that as he is left handed, he finds it easier and neater to write with a pen rather than a pencil and as such had sent him in with one, and to contact me if there were any issues with this.

Yesterday, I received an email from his teacher - 7 paragraphs of clearly AI formulated text which didn't actually address any of the issues or explain what he is doing with a pencil that can't be done with a pen, or what objective rather than subjective criteria needs to be met. This has annoyed me further. Everything I've read online says that pen licenses are outdated, aren't part of the curriculum, and put dyspraxic/left handed children at a disadvantage as they end up having less time to practice writing with a pen in comparison to their peers.

I think as far as parents go, we have pretty easy to meet expectations. There have been a few annoyances along the way but we've broadly speaking let them go - as in we're not those parents that are emailing once a week, or catching the teacher "just quickly" at the end of the day (and delaying everyone else by doing so). I've approached it from a trust the school to do their job, and we'll do ours at home sort of way. So I'm not sure whether this is just the straw that broke the camels back and that's why it feels such a big issue. I could do with a bit of a sense check on how hard to push on this one issue.

Apologies in advance - I'm at work today so may not be able to keep up with the thread in real time.

YABU - let the school do what works for them and don't interfere

YANBU - nothing changes if nobody challenges systems that are outdated and no longer fit for purpose

Bloody hell.

Its good for kids to have to work for things and not have mummy tell them the rules don’t apply to them.

Yes, and they almost always type everything nowadays. it massively reduces the chance of errors.

Agree but with pen license it is not only a matter of practice makes perfect but there is a huge developmental element to being able to write neatly. It's like rewarding taller dc for being able to reach the top shelf in the classroom.

I'm left handed and can't say I write neater with a pen than a pencil. What's the theory behind this?

What I do get when I write with a pen is an 'inky pinky', becuase rather than curve my hand to avoid my hand running over what I've just wrote, I just embrace there might be some smudge.

exams are still mainly doing by hand and not with a keyboard.

Having a decent handwriting IS still a need, not sure where you got that it's outdated? You would think taking the time to practice and master that when they are still young is useful.

It's an odd way of thinking to complain to the school when your child is not mastering something, instead of helping them to reach the criteria.

Will you do that for everything else too? You won't be the only one, even in secondary parents complain about unreasonable expectations for their child (when the rest of the class is absolutely fine and well ahead 😂)
But some parents prefer that their child is not pushed and never has to make any effort, sadly.

Apparently these mummies have now reached university levels and are trying to be involved there too.

And people think it's AI the risk for our future 😂

There's a massive difference though between writing quickly and legibly in exams (necessary) and having your fs level with your ts (waste of time).

Like a PP has said, teaching kids to focus on neat handwriting rather than content does them a disservice when it gets to secondary and no one gives a crap providing it's legible.

I was responding to you in the way you responded to me. You didn't just say handwriting could be beneficial. You said that it an important and very worthwhile skill and were implying that because I don't think it necessary beyond education i am uneducated myself and not a professional.

I don't think the letter was such a big deal. Is your DS practicing writing at home?

Agree completely.
Someone has to teach them to write before they get to secondary school.
I know of a kid whose GCSE paper was so poorly written that it affected their grade due to being virtually illegible.

One of my DC is left handed. The weirdest thing is that it’s so much easier to read pen than pencil!

Lots of people use AI for banal tasks - let it go.

Pen licenses are part of a range of poor classroom practices such as sunshine/rain cloud behavioural boards. Despite the vast array of research on how these don’t work, some schools remain wedded to them. I doubt they’re all unaware of the research, so assume they’ve ignored it for whatever reason.

The school my son goes to has these archaic systems, but overall is a good school and I didn’t want to pick this hill to die on.

I agreed with my son that it made no sense, but sometimes things don’t and you just have to get on with it. I also continued to set aside time for handwriting practice, which we did and continued doing irrespective of getting a pen license. What pissed me off the most was there were groups to help children struggling in other areas such as maths or reading, but nothing for handwriting. You wouldn’t keep telling a child off and labelling their reading or maths as atrocious when they’re trying, but for handwriting it was acceptable.

Yes, handwriting just needs to be legible for exams. Even then, if a pupil can't write legibly for some reason pupils will be given computers in exams.

My oldest DD didn't get her Pen licence however now in year 6 school lets her use a pen (still without a pen licence) she has grip issues identified by an OT.

My youngest DD got hers in year 3.

It did cause Oldest DD a few issues, mainly one child a year younger would say things to her about her writing skills, he even was telling me one time when I was waiting for Perent teacher meetings, how he had his and she didn't.

It's no longer assessed at Year 6.

This is incorrect in relation to England. Children must show that they can join fluently in order to achieve the expected standard for writing at the end of Y6. It is an explicit criterion in the teacher assessment framework.

You are reading things into my post that are not there. Chill.

My ds is left handed and finally got his pen licence in Y6 because he was pretty much the only child who didn't have it and they had to give it out before the end. His writing was OK but he needed to write with left handed grips for quite a long time. I gave up caring once all the girls, with far better motor skills, had got theirs. Left hander, boy, not such fine motor skills. Shrug. If it's any consolation, just started at Oxford on a post grad course so it didn't do him any harm in the long run.

Most school policies like this are not down to the class teachers, they are put in place by management, so berating class teachers about these things is unhelpful. They may agree with you but can't say so.

And then they go to secondary and no one gives a solitary fuck.

As my sons year 7 English teacher said at his first parents evening, when I’d mentioned the utter chaos ds not writing in cursive caused in Primary, “I don’t care if he writes in all capitals in the blood of his enemies, as long as I can read it clearly.”

I have never written in cursive either. I’ll email my boss now and tell her that from now on, I must only write in pencil.

My handwriting is far more legible when it's not joined up, in fact I have never done joined up writing since leaving primary and I rarely did it then. I'm 60 now so I guess I would never have got a "pen licence" ( which IMO, is one of the most ridiculous things I've heard),
My dad on the other hand had beautiful joined up writing which he had to learn aged 7 with an ink pen, no stupid rules back then. You were given a pen and told to get on with it.

What a silly idea. I'd probably still be using a pencil now, if this was a universal rule

My DC didn't get their pen licence. The school didn't support them in their handwriting at all - that's a real bone of contention with me, even to this day, several years on.

Its a bloody stupid system. Oh, and they are doing fine without it. Don't need it on their CV do they? 🤣

So let me get this straight. You kid's writing isn't neat enough for a pen license (most of the kids at my kids school took until Y6 to get it). The criteria is neat writing.

Your kid doesn't have neat writing, but you think it isn't 'fair' that he is upset that he doesn't have something that he hasn't met the criteria for and hasn't earned.

Because of this 'unfairness' you messaged the school and effectively complained because you didn't like that your kid wasn't able to meet the criteria and didn't have neat enough writing.

The situation was spelled out to you and you then didn't like the response.

And because you clearly don't respect the rules, the criteria or the teacher, you gave your kid a pen and told them to use it anyway.

Effectively you have taught your child

• Don't worry if you can't do something, I will circumvent the rules and fix it for you.
• If you don't agree with the teacher, complain and if you don't get your own way do it anyway.
• Don't try harder to earn something, just expect something because clearly you are entitled to it
• Don't respect your teacher or authority because I will make up the rules if they suit me.
• Feeling upset or sad because you haven't accomplished something isn't okay and a solution should be tailored to you against the rules.

You are not helping your child in any way build resilience or hard work YABU.

you know they can learn both? They're not mutually exclusive.

The only "disservice" is asking children to learn and practice a skill and put a bit of effort. It's outrageous for some parents.

But see how many parents also complain loudly about the "outdated" timetables and how ridiculous to try to force children to learn them. Funny how it's always the same parents.

We had pen licences. I never got one. My handwriting was beautiful, but I’d done my early primary schooling overseas and my curly cursive was far too European for the English CoE primary where I ended up. This was early 80s.

On the other hand DS’s(18) prinary didn’t have anything like pen licences and his handwriting is abysmal. We’re just sitting out getting permission to do his A levels on a laptop.

Believe me, I am not one of those parents. If you told the parents in both my kids' classes I wasn't 100% supportive of school and pushy AF, they would laugh in your face.

Both kids are dedicated and resilient. DD is KS3 and plays 4 musical instruments to Grade 6 + level. She practices every day. Both play chess to national level. My DS is on the pathway for County level sport.

I just can't get excited over a pen licence. Like a PP has said, a failure to get a pen licence didn't stop their child getting a run of Grade 9s in their GCSE. Schools should focus on content not style

(Andy Burnham, that also applies to you).