Pen licence - Year 3

[whatk8ydid]

Morning all, was hoping to get a hive mind view on this - particularly from either primary school teachers or those with primary age children.

My 7 year old is in Year 3. His school apparently have "pen licences" - which I'd never heard of before. When their writing is deemed "neat enough" by whatever subjective criteria they use, they are given a pen licence and are allowed to use pen instead of pencil to write with.

He, and quite a few others in his class, feel quite disheartened and "not good enough". I think about a fifth have a pen licence so far.

DS is normally a pretty robust little thing, it's not often his injustice mode is activated but he's really quite sad about this. Last week I decided the whole pen thing was bloody nonsense, sent him in with a pen and wrote a note in his reading diary saying that as he is left handed, he finds it easier and neater to write with a pen rather than a pencil and as such had sent him in with one, and to contact me if there were any issues with this.

Yesterday, I received an email from his teacher - 7 paragraphs of clearly AI formulated text which didn't actually address any of the issues or explain what he is doing with a pencil that can't be done with a pen, or what objective rather than subjective criteria needs to be met. This has annoyed me further. Everything I've read online says that pen licenses are outdated, aren't part of the curriculum, and put dyspraxic/left handed children at a disadvantage as they end up having less time to practice writing with a pen in comparison to their peers.

I think as far as parents go, we have pretty easy to meet expectations. There have been a few annoyances along the way but we've broadly speaking let them go - as in we're not those parents that are emailing once a week, or catching the teacher "just quickly" at the end of the day (and delaying everyone else by doing so). I've approached it from a trust the school to do their job, and we'll do ours at home sort of way. So I'm not sure whether this is just the straw that broke the camels back and that's why it feels such a big issue. I could do with a bit of a sense check on how hard to push on this one issue.

Apologies in advance - I'm at work today so may not be able to keep up with the thread in real time.

YABU - let the school do what works for them and don't interfere

YANBU - nothing changes if nobody challenges systems that are outdated and no longer fit for purpose

Can I ask why you think the letter is AI generated?

It’s up there with 100% attendance awards.

I would say because most teacher know F all about the concept of handwriting fluidity or pattern consistency or any of the actual mechanics of it in relation to motor coordination etc. If they did they would be better at helping kids that struggle. I would put good money on the teacher having a good old google to formulate that response.

It's a ridiculous concept and has no relevance to good handwriting development. Maybe get AI to write you a good rebuttal!

So, are they saying he needs a pencil during handwriting practise so that he can rub out any errors?
That makes sense, but surely for regular schoolwork a pen is fine.

Nowadays you can get erasable gel pens.

YANBU. I did exactly as you did and I when the school challenged me I was quite firm and said if they wanted to carry on that was fine, but DD1 wouldn’t be doing it. She’s left handed as well, and the grip she has on the pen (it’s a proper fountain pen so designed for a left handed user) is a lot easier for her to write with than a pencil. When you’re left handed, having the right tool to write with is a life saver.

They stopped arguing after the fifth time I sent her in with the pen and they confiscated it, returned it at the end of the day, and I sent her in with the same one the next day. It made a huge difference for her 11+ as she was used to the pen so could write a lot faster (she’d been using it for three years by that point) on the English paper.

So it’s not just about ‘archaic rules’ but also possible wider implication for the near future.

I don't understand why you are so annoyed by this. There might be some AI use to structure it (although I don't think it's actually very obvious) but it's still individualised to your son. The teacher has clearly spent time on it and thought about your son and what s/he feels he needs.

Sounds like a thoughtful teacher to me. Many would send a brief one or two line response to something like this, just stating that it's not the way they do things.

You could always ask for a conversation in person if it feels that important to you but I do think honestly you're getting a bit of a bee in your bonnet here.

Support your son at home, speak to the teacher if you need to, but I don't think you're being very understanding of where the teacher is coming from. It's not like it's just an archaic blanket approach - rightly or wrongly they are thinking it through and think it's what's best for your son.

You know what's more annoying about it? In secondary we don't care about handwriting. At all. I remember lots of year 7s all anxious, taking too long over their work because they were focusing on forming letters correctly and getting themselves into a tizz.. or all discombobulated and thrown off because I marked them on what they'd said, not how they'd written it. I taught a humanities subject- they had to do extended analysis by the end of year 11 and handwriting mattered not a jot.
I wish there was more joined up thinking between primary and secondary teaching. As it is, they just had to unlearn a lot of stuff they'd spent 7 years at primary having battered into them and for some of them it was a really hard adjustment.
My brother is a leftie and consistently underperformed in exams because he spent so long keeping his writing neat. What a waste.

I don't know why you think that email was written by AI? I imagine they have a stock one, you won't be the first parent to have done this.

It's OK for your son to feel disheartened, it's your job as a parent to help him learn that we don't start off being great at things, point out he's in the 80% of pupils who aren't ready for one yet, he just needs to keep practising until his writing is good enough. This is such an important lesson - it is possible to get better through effort. Even us left handers can do it!

Because I've met the teacher and know how she speaks - plus no human writes seven paragraphs whilst actually saying nothing of substance. The Academy who has taken over the school fairly recently seems to be pro-AI judging from the generated posters, newsletters and updates that have been sent out recently, so I don't think she's using it in a way that school wouldn't support. But I would prefer to have a conversation with my child's teacher, not via AI.

I suppose they care less at secondary because they are not the ones teaching it?

When you are actually going through the process of teaching children to write, you have to make it important or they won't learn it.

People do need to be able to write, even with all the tech we have today, it's an important skill. If primary schools didn't focus on it then they would not learn and you wouldn't even be able to read their work by secondary.

So everyone started with a pencil at the beginning of September and one fifth of the class have now moved onto a pen, is that right? The pencil is used as an erasable learning tool while they are improving and everyone is expected to have progressed to pen by the end of the year?

My daughter didn't get hers till year 6 (i think they forgot her and a few others). It will be interesting to see when my son gets it (has good handwriting if concentrating hard).

My daughter is right handed, bright and does well at school. She only just got her pen licence in year 5. She looked forward to it and it was an achievement for her. Just let the school get on with it. They are not going to treat your child differently to the thousands that came before him. I think this is an example of parents being unable to tolerate any discomfort for their kids. Just say to your son- oh, that's annoying for you, keep going and im sure you'll get it soon. Why not go in and speak to the teacher face to face rather than email, a 2 min chat would probably help you understand. It might be that there is a perceived injustice that other class members are getting the pen licence but there may be a good reason.

We had this when I was at primary school, but starting in Y4, when we had fountain pen lessons. As a left hander I was one of the last to get the licence, as I had to remember to position my hand so the ink didn’t smudge. In all honesty, if this is for modern disposable pens, I don’t see the point, but I also don’t think that it’s harmful. Childhood exposure to challenges and minor experiences of injustice help us build resilience snd learn how to turn being disheartened into striving to prove ourselves.

Ds1 got one in year 4 and Ds2 never got one but knew every child uses a pen in year 7 as he has older cousins.

It is a incentive to try to get handwriting neater and consistent. Ds2 is at uni and still cannot handwrite consistently but it is just about legible, he does however type at a professional level.

Can you get him a cool mechanical pencil? I always find them loads easier to write neatly and it’s great they never need sharpening. Pen licenses are a bit naff and pointless imo. Why can’t they carry on learning their joins etc with a pen and not a pencil?

As a left handed person I can tell you that those grips aren't designed for us. It's not just that we use a different hand - the main problem is that, being naturally expected to write from left to write, across the page, like everybody else, we have to come at it from literally a different angle. Some come in from the top with their wrist very noticeably bent and so appear to be writing upside down. I used to have my exercise book at 90° to everyone else's and write from the top to the bottom of the desk. Varying techniques require different grips and one size fits all won't do.

^This. I’m a teacher btw.

As the parent of a dyspraxic child who never managed to reach the standard for a pen licence and now at 20 years old still thinks his writing is not good enough and is embarrassed by it, I think it is shocking that they are still considered a good idea.

My DD got hers pretty early and has terrible handwriting so it's a load of nonsense in my experience. I would just build him up at home and let the school do their thing.

Is his writing of a good standard ?

I'm a teacher and literacy specialist, and happen to be left-handed. That email may have been polished by Copilot but it's not entirely AI generated and it is relevant information. The subtext is that your DS is not yet correctly forming letters or joining, which would be entirely normal in Year 3. Is he?

I am not sure if my youngest ever got the pen license. I think they just let every child have one by a certain year. She wasn't bothered. Now in her 20s and doesn't seem to have had an impact on her life.

I am still bemused that whilst they made a big thing of neat handwriting and pen licenses at ds2's school they did not spot he formed his letters back to front. No wonder he couldn't do joined up writing!