Does the rise of the child free mean that attitudes have changed towards parents and children?

[Itchthescratch]

I have been on a few threads on MN recently where animosity amongst child free people towards parents seems to be ramping up. The underlying premise seems to be that parents shouldn't receive many or in some cases any concessions from society for having children because it was their choice. Children are no longer seen as a necessary part of society that will need to be subsidised to some extent by the state and everyone else, like the elderly or disabled, but are instead seen as the fulfilment of a parent's selfish desire in the the same way that someone might choose to have a pet.

AIBU or has anyone else noticed this?

I don't necessarily disagree in some ways when it comes to parents recklessly having more and more children for the state to fund, but I am mindful of people like my friend who is a carer and has a husband who is a learning disability support worker. They have two children they technically can't afford on their wages alone but they are excellent parents and are raising useful member of society. Do you think they shouldn't have children or be supported to do so?

Im simply answering the point made about why people talk about a lifestyle choice, which were points made in your OP

Thats why the motivation matters.

Additionally motivation matters when it comes to understanding why people dont like being around child centred activities, locations, behaviour etc. Because women are becoming less and less motivated to have kids, they dont want it, its unpleasant to many, tiresome and unfullfilling. So not everyone wants to coo and enjoy children around them so they may be what is seen as intolerant of that around them.

Look at all the other things people do that arent going to progress the human race, we're eating ourselves to death, mushing our brains because we cant concentrate any more, no one says we have a public duty to remain fit and healthy so that we can rely less on carers and care for example.

We only need children as a society if you accept that the continued existence of the human race - who have ruined this planet and decimated innumerable other species, both plant and animal, to the point of extinction - is a good thing.

I do think there is an antipathy expressed towards parents on some parts of the internet, just as there is an antipathy expressed towards any recognisable group of people on the internet, because that's what internet discussion is like.

That includes Mumsnet, largely because of the mnetters without children board. Not that everyone without children is going to be opposed to parents, but the kind of person who would choose to use that aspect of their life as an identity, and specifically join a parenting board to express that, is probably inclined to be a bit cross and fighty in general. Certainly seems to be the case that whenever I see a post from someone that is really out-there aggressive, twisted and nasty, when I AS them I can see they spend a lot of time on that particular board.

Well you are obviously proposing the end of society. That's a different argument.

Most child free people though want to live to a ripe old age with a functioning society to meet their health, social, care and other essential needs. This needs children. You need farmers out in the fields and nurses in the hospitals. You need refuse workers taking your rubbish and supermarket staff stocking shelves and warehouses. You can't expect parents to meet all the costs of creating this future workforce and expect to reap all the benefits. It's obviously unfair and completely unworkable.

There was a time within my lifetime when not having children was considered a bit odd. And if you didn't have a life-partner made you a lesbian. I missed the time when being an unmarried single woman(spinster) held a little respect.

What has been reasonably constant is the low view held towards female single parents; somehow male single parents are all but canonised.

Some people think like that, but I don't think it's common. I only have one friend who talks like that, and she had a difficult relationship with her own mother.

No. If anything children have only been acknowledged and heard in the last 25 years. People were always intolerant of children, and cruel in the past. They were to be seen not heard.

Children are like farts you can only sit comfortably with your own.

I loved children. I have two, now that they’re older. I have less patience for young children. There was a time when I’d be happy to allow the whole street of children to play, eat, paint, hang out in my home and garden. Not anymore. Perimenopause.
I am surprised that I changed so much.
I don’t dislike children but I’ve less patience for them.

My last employer had a policy that people who worked between Christmas and New Year in the previous year had first dibs on booking leave over the Christmas period the following year. It was same for time off around Easter and during the summer holidays.

It meant that the childfree whose partners worked in education and could only get time off during school holidays at least got a chance to go away with their partners.

I think that approach is even more important in roles where Christmas Day working can be required. Why should the childfree be denied the opportunity to spend Christmas with family/friends?

Could you link to that statistic, please?

It's more that in the past, people tended to keep them under control, and not them them run about restaurants injuring themselves and other people. A lot more parents seem to be entitled, and gentle/permissive parenting has meant things are very different from a generation ago. Our parents didn't think it was ok to send children to school in nappies (obligatory obviously excepting SEND children). And no so many parents expected so much free.
I've not seen many people complaining about well-behaved children in public places, or having any issues with them being there.

And will you be encouraging your children to go into any of those professions?

I was pretty pissed off when Labour abolished the two child benefit limit

I worked for 50 years and in all that time never worked with anyone who demanded special treatment or flexible working which impacted anyone else because they had children.

seen as the fulfilment of a parent's selfish desire in the the same way that someone might choose to have a pet.

Unless a couple is shit at birth control or I guess unlucky, they ARE the fulfilment of their parents’ desire…. Am I missing something?

I think a lot of parents with ‘badly behaved’ or challenging children, whether though neurodiversity or not, kept them in check with smacks or the threat of them. Or worse. This has thankfully changed but is also a reason why there are more children who have not learned, or find it difficult to ‘behave’.

There’s child free by choice, or chosen not to be a father to their children.

But you won’t have been if you were the 3rd child. I don’t think children should suffer.

I don’t have children. I have lovely things in my house. It’s not in any way a child friendly house. I also slept in until 10am today because I was out late with my husband. I also give my husband plenty of attention and often put him first. We have a lovely luxury holiday booked next year to an adult only place. The difference is we didn’t “not want children”. We did. It didn’t happen. And yes since my 4th miscarriage we now enjoy nice luxurious things and sleep in until we want. And I don’t regret a single part of that. It would be ridiculous to child proof my house and possessions and set alarms for 5am in order to almost “prove” we would have been decent parents.

I’m in my 50s. Am single (by choice) and am childfree - I always knew that I didn’t want children. I have friends with children and friends without. Those with kids, I like their kids, they get birthday/Xmas gifts/money until they’re 18. I’ve done babysitting. I’m not a monster!

I don’t begrudge paying my taxes re health, education, etc. I probably have more of an issue re the “single” tax burden than anything else - still can’t fathom only a 25% discount on council tax, but then I’m not an economist. Some shit you just have to suck up and get on with.

These types of threads annoy me for a number of reasons, because they always go roughly the same way. I think my biggest frustration is because it’s a have/have not battle. When, in my view, that battle shouldn’t be there. Whether you have kids or not, the most important thing for women, is that we have the choice now. This should be celebrated and respected on both sides. Because it’s not that long ago that choices and circumstances were very, very different.

Secondly, sorry, but I really don’t think any parent has ever decided to have a child for the good of the future workforce - let alone to guide them towards worthwhile caring careers! Can any parent here honestly say that’s why they decided to have kids? It’s an argument that is thrown out to make others feel guilty.

There Will always be at least one poster on these types of thread that throws out the totally unoriginal query of “but why are those without kids on this site, it’s called MUMSnet”. Please, if anyone can recommend a forum, mainly used by women, that covers a multitude of topics such as gardening, property, pets, tv, news, politics, weather, etc - let us know where it is. Because none of those topics are exclusive to people with kids. I don’t want to touch Reddit, Tattle, etc with a barge pole. But if someone can guide me/others to an all-encompassing forum then please do so.

A lot of judgemental posts on this site are from parents towards other parents. It’s not just those without children that speak negatively! I’ve seen/heard plenty say that they love their kids, but find others annoying. Surely, that’s natural?

Theres nothing wrong with wanting kids. And there’s nothing wrong with not wanting them.

I agree that children may have originally arisen from a fulfillment of their parents' selfish desires but once they're here then they are an entity in their own right and not just a consequence of their parents' decision making. They aren't just an accessory of the parent as some like to imply. They are human beings in their own right and should be viewed and supported as such.

Ultimately aren't we all the fulfilment of our parents' selfish desires as well? We don't use this as rationale to deprive adults of state support or help.

There are literally thousands of careers that we need to keep society functioning. I imagine my children, like most people, will go into one of those careers. Why would you assume they wouldn't?

Ok, well I've worked since I was 15 and have experienced this frequently.

The parents that have sick young children that can't go to nursery or school. Sometimes this is chicken pox or hand, foot and mouth and can take a while to resolve itself.

The parents that have children with SEN or complex medical issues that need to attend lots of appointments or their children requires frequent hospital visits.

The parents that couldn't work the exceptional late night or weekend because they were a single parent and literally didn't have any childcare. They also couldn't do Christmas when their childcare facility was shut.

I also used to work in a shop where parents had to work specific shifts due to childcare issues. They literally couldn't afford childcare and relied on family members who could only do specific days b

The mad thing is that a lot of people seem to assume that parents are 'demanding' this flexibility so that they get an advantage over everyone else when most parents that need the flexibility are in really crap situations and trying to make it work.

Lazy parents are the issue.