Page 13 | Brownies incident stopped me singing, starting to see how messed up it was.

Magenta82 · 2026-08-04T09:18:39+00:00

When I (44) was 8 I went to a big division meet up, not many people from my pack went. There was show put on by another group as part of their Entertainer badge, they played the spoons. Someone then described the award and I thought it sounded like fun. I went back and badgered the leaders until they agreed to do it. We did a big group show for all the parents and everyone had to do an individual piece as well, some at the show and some on a normal Brownies night. I chose to do it at the show. I decided to sing from my school hymn book (the blue one with the ugly kids on the front #4 Autumn Days), on my own, in front of everyone with no musical accompliment. The "judges" were 3 quite elderly ladies from some kind of group of retired Brownie leaders or something (trefoil?). They failed me. I didn't get the badge. Now admittedly I can't carry a tune in a bucket but still! I was basically put off singing for life, gave up trying, if I was so bad I couldn't get a brownie bade I must be the worst in the world. It seemed unjust at the time, but now I have a child in Squirrels I really just how fucked up it really was. AIBU

CossyBunt · Today 12:58

Op, I’m a similar age to you, and I can remember some very strange adults being involved in the world of Brownies & Guides. Weird, unkind people, nothing sexually inappropriate but people with a nasty side to them which they took out on kids.

budgiegirl · Today 13:05

Redintoothandclaw · Today 12:48

The OP didn't learn a skill though, did she? She got onto the stage and sang a song she'd sung in school Assembly. Very badly. No skill-learning was involved. Where badges involve someone judging that a skill has actually been learned, then that skill needs to be demonstrated. This is helping children to get used to thinking about what's involved, planning it, doing the work, etc. That's very useful learning, which they are deprived of if they pretty much just need to show up for the badge presentation.

Did you miss the bit where I said about having fun, trying new things. Perhaps they didn't need to learn a skill for the Entertainer badge - just take part in a show and have fun! I doubt very much that a Brownie Entertainer badge specifies that only children who can sing in tune should take part. For some children, it will take a lot of bravery to get up in front of an audience to sing.

I will never forget a child at my son's school who was the most nervous child I've ever known. At the Christmas play he got up and sang a solo. It was totally out of tune, but it was one of the most beautiful things I ever heard. There wasn't a dry eye in the house.

Anarchy99 · Today 14:31

Mermaidmusing · Yesterday 14:49

I wouldn’t PM another user in this particular scenario as that could look weird, as I was offering to send her something. I made the offer openly on the thread so that it wouldn’t look weird, and she could indicate whether she wanted to accept the offer or not. It wasn’t for anyone else to stick their oar in on what was clearly an offer from one user to another. It wasn’t a discussion point.

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Nevertheless you posted a comment on a public forum so that is open for comment from others on the thread.

Either PM or accept that anything is up for comment

Anarchy99 · Today 14:44

budgiegirl · Today 12:35

Exactly. I have seen young people leaving school and starting work and they are so used to having effusive praise for putting in the effort that they lose sight of the fact that it is irrelevant and that only results matter.
Kids can understand that there are things they may be good at and things they may not be good at. But giving them badges because they have bothered to turn up isn’t the way forward

There are plenty of places where young people learn they they are good at some things and not so good at others. School exams, auditions for plays, music exams, dance exams, sports clubs where they have to be good enough to make the team etc. Some of the badges at scouts/guides have a level to be achieved, especially in the older sections. In fact, there's a lot of pressure on young people these days to excel at certain activities.

But at Brownies? Nah. It should be all about having fun, making friends, learning to give back to the community, learning skills and introducing children to lots of activities - some of which they may go on to develop a greater interest in. If a leader is going to knock the confidence of a young child by failing them due to lack of perceived talent, then all you are doing at that age is putting them off an activity that they may otherwise have gone on to enjoy.

only results matter. What a sad way of looking at things that a child enjoys. That shouldn't be the ethos of scouting/guiding.

Edited

It is if you are going to be handing out badges. And it’s not about talent necessarily - if someone doesn’t have the natural talent, fhey can work on something and become good at it or find it impossible to be good regardless of effort

Or what is the purpose of them? To say that in the opinion of the leaders you made an effort? Or are they to mark an achievement?

I find it impressive that leaders know when someone makes an effort versus someone who has made less effort but achieved a better result.

I can’t sing for shit. If I had ‘earned’ a badge for doing it because I put the effort in, that would be meaningless.

As the children get older, do they not question why they got an award for something they did badly, or do they not ever realise they did do it badly? It’s a genuine question.

budgiegirl · Today 14:54

Anarchy99 · Today 14:44

It is if you are going to be handing out badges. And it’s not about talent necessarily - if someone doesn’t have the natural talent, fhey can work on something and become good at it or find it impossible to be good regardless of effort

Or what is the purpose of them? To say that in the opinion of the leaders you made an effort? Or are they to mark an achievement?

I find it impressive that leaders know when someone makes an effort versus someone who has made less effort but achieved a better result.

I can’t sing for shit. If I had ‘earned’ a badge for doing it because I put the effort in, that would be meaningless.

As the children get older, do they not question why they got an award for something they did badly, or do they not ever realise they did do it badly? It’s a genuine question.

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It's not a music exam, where it's fair enough that you must reach a certain level to pass the exam. It's a Brownie badge!!

And yes, as a leader I can certainly tell at a meeting which cubs are focused and trying, as opposed to messing around not really trying. Is that really so surprising?

Genuinely, if they questioned why they got a badge for doing something badly, I would tell them that while the end result may not have been perfect, if they've done it to the best of their ability, they deserve the badge as much as the child who is naturally a great singer. Because, once again, it's not about the level of ability reached, but the effort made to get there. It's not an exam. It's a badge!

Redintoothandclaw · Today 15:06

budgiegirl · Today 13:05

Did you miss the bit where I said about having fun, trying new things. Perhaps they didn't need to learn a skill for the Entertainer badge - just take part in a show and have fun! I doubt very much that a Brownie Entertainer badge specifies that only children who can sing in tune should take part. For some children, it will take a lot of bravery to get up in front of an audience to sing.

I will never forget a child at my son's school who was the most nervous child I've ever known. At the Christmas play he got up and sang a solo. It was totally out of tune, but it was one of the most beautiful things I ever heard. There wasn't a dry eye in the house.

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She didn't have to sing, she could have done any kind of performance. She made the mistake of 1) choosing to sing (presumably on the assumption she then wouldn't need to practise, and failing to take into account the fact that she couldn't sing in tune) 2) choosing a boring hymn (presumably because she didn't want to make the effort to find something new and to learn it), 3) not practising it (because she assumed that it was impossible to fail as long as you stood up on stage, and she couldn't be bothered to practise).
Performing in front of an audience isn't primarily about having fun, it's about entertaining the audience. And yes, it's often scary. But she didn't deserve to pass just for standing on a stage for 2 minutes and singing something boring extremely badly. I've been to lots of awful musical performances at primary school (most young children can't play the violin in tune), but at least those children had practised hard and made a genuine effort at doing something difficult.
If she'd got the badge it would have encouraged her to double down on believing that she would always be rewarded for anything she did, however crap and lazy it was, and never needed to make any effort.
But as I've said, I think most of the responsibility here goes on poor communication by the brownie leaders. The judges simply did their job. The whole concept of being judged involves the possibility of doing badly.

Anarchy99 · Today 15:07

budgiegirl · Today 14:54

It's not a music exam, where it's fair enough that you must reach a certain level to pass the exam. It's a Brownie badge!!

And yes, as a leader I can certainly tell at a meeting which cubs are focused and trying, as opposed to messing around not really trying. Is that really so surprising?

Genuinely, if they questioned why they got a badge for doing something badly, I would tell them that while the end result may not have been perfect, if they've done it to the best of their ability, they deserve the badge as much as the child who is naturally a great singer. Because, once again, it's not about the level of ability reached, but the effort made to get there. It's not an exam. It's a badge!

Show quote history

So something like the entertainment badge, is it not an acknowledgement of a skill? Or is it an acknowledgement that someone has put in sufficient effort in the opinion of the leader.

Would it not upset the child when they are older to realise it was perceived effort, not result, that was behind it?

Maybe it’s an ND thing but I would feel a bit uncomfortable about being awarded for a bad performance.

Redintoothandclaw · Today 15:08

budgiegirl · Today 14:54

It's not a music exam, where it's fair enough that you must reach a certain level to pass the exam. It's a Brownie badge!!

And yes, as a leader I can certainly tell at a meeting which cubs are focused and trying, as opposed to messing around not really trying. Is that really so surprising?

Genuinely, if they questioned why they got a badge for doing something badly, I would tell them that while the end result may not have been perfect, if they've done it to the best of their ability, they deserve the badge as much as the child who is naturally a great singer. Because, once again, it's not about the level of ability reached, but the effort made to get there. It's not an exam. It's a badge!

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Badge or certificate - there's no obvious difference. It's an acknowledgement that the person has done well or at least passed.

budgiegirl · Today 15:20

Is a badge not. Is a badge not what? An exam? Then no, it's not, not in the same way as, say a music or dance exam. Most cub badges with a few exceptions (and I assume brownie badges) do not require a certain level of talent or skill to be reached.

Badge or certificate - there's no obvious difference. It's an acknowledgement that the person has done well or at least passed. There's a huge difference between a cub (brownie) badge, and, say a music exam. We do about three badges per term - so about 2 or 3 weeks work on each one. Hardly the same as doing a music exam once or twice per year. The same level of achievement cannot possibly be expected. Plus you have a whole range of kids with a whole range of different skills and interests. So for each cub badge, in the two to three weeks, there will be be whole range of levels of achievement. So no, I'm not failing Johnny because he wasn't quite as talented as Jimmy. As long as Johnny put the effort in, he deserves the badge just as much as Jimmy - perhaps more so.

Because, one again, a cub badge IS NOT AN EXAM.

budgiegirl · Today 15:24

So something like the entertainment badge, is it not an acknowledgement of a skill? Or is it an acknowledgement that someone has put in sufficient effort in the opinion of the leader. The second, on the whole . The child took part in show to entertain.

Would it not upset the child when they are older to realise it was perceived effort, not result, that was behind it? I doubt it. I really wouldn't think that a 15 year old child, say, looked back at their cub badges and gave it much thought. Unless it was something they discovered a love of - it might be that an activity they tried at cubs led to a hobby, interest, or even career later in their childhood/adulthood.

Anarchy99 · Today 15:29

budgiegirl · Today 15:20

Is a badge not. Is a badge not what? An exam? Then no, it's not, not in the same way as, say a music or dance exam. Most cub badges with a few exceptions (and I assume brownie badges) do not require a certain level of talent or skill to be reached.

Badge or certificate - there's no obvious difference. It's an acknowledgement that the person has done well or at least passed. There's a huge difference between a cub (brownie) badge, and, say a music exam. We do about three badges per term - so about 2 or 3 weeks work on each one. Hardly the same as doing a music exam once or twice per year. The same level of achievement cannot possibly be expected. Plus you have a whole range of kids with a whole range of different skills and interests. So for each cub badge, in the two to three weeks, there will be be whole range of levels of achievement. So no, I'm not failing Johnny because he wasn't quite as talented as Jimmy. As long as Johnny put the effort in, he deserves the badge just as much as Jimmy - perhaps more so.

Because, one again, a cub badge IS NOT AN EXAM.

I pressed send too soon and then corrected my comment.

Anarchy99 · Today 15:39

budgiegirl · Today 15:24

So something like the entertainment badge, is it not an acknowledgement of a skill? Or is it an acknowledgement that someone has put in sufficient effort in the opinion of the leader. The second, on the whole . The child took part in show to entertain.

Would it not upset the child when they are older to realise it was perceived effort, not result, that was behind it? I doubt it. I really wouldn't think that a 15 year old child, say, looked back at their cub badges and gave it much thought. Unless it was something they discovered a love of - it might be that an activity they tried at cubs led to a hobby, interest, or even career later in their childhood/adulthood.

It is clear from this thread that people remember that they did something badly in their childhood whether or
not they got the badge. I remember doing some things badly despite effort and the thought that someone would have given me praise/an award would make me cringe even harder.

Out of interest, is first aid still compulsory in guides?

budgiegirl · Today 15:48

Anarchy99 · Today 15:39

It is clear from this thread that people remember that they did something badly in their childhood whether or
not they got the badge. I remember doing some things badly despite effort and the thought that someone would have given me praise/an award would make me cringe even harder.

Out of interest, is first aid still compulsory in guides?

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I suppose we are all different - I really, truly believe that effort should be rewarded. I can't speak for the guides, but as far as my cubs are concerned, as long as they work hard at it, they get the badge. If a certain level is needed (ie. tie three knots), we will help them practice until they get it. There's not exam or test as such. It is slightly different for swimming etc, but they tend to do this out of cubs, and bring in their certificates to show they've reached the required standard.

Was first aid ever compulsory in guides? I was a guide in the 80's, and don't remember doing it - although that is a long time ago! Certainly in scouts it's not compulsory (except for the leaders), but is encouraged.

Anarchy99 · Today 15:58

budgiegirl · Today 15:48

I suppose we are all different - I really, truly believe that effort should be rewarded. I can't speak for the guides, but as far as my cubs are concerned, as long as they work hard at it, they get the badge. If a certain level is needed (ie. tie three knots), we will help them practice until they get it. There's not exam or test as such. It is slightly different for swimming etc, but they tend to do this out of cubs, and bring in their certificates to show they've reached the required standard.

Was first aid ever compulsory in guides? I was a guide in the 80's, and don't remember doing it - although that is a long time ago! Certainly in scouts it's not compulsory (except for the leaders), but is encouraged.

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Fair enough, I just don’t think valuing the effort despite a bad result is healthy,

We were told first aid was compulsory in guides (1982 ish). it may have been just our leader who told us this. I only remember that because I was able to use it as a way to leave the organisation!

I don’t know how much has changed but it had nothing to offer someone who wasn’t girly or sporty!

budgiegirl · Today 16:04

Anarchy99 · Today 15:58

Fair enough, I just don’t think valuing the effort despite a bad result is healthy,

We were told first aid was compulsory in guides (1982 ish). it may have been just our leader who told us this. I only remember that because I was able to use it as a way to leave the organisation!

I don’t know how much has changed but it had nothing to offer someone who wasn’t girly or sporty!

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I do remember having to carry a 2p coin in my pocket for the phone in case of emergency! Some things have definitely changed!

In my experience, guides has changed massively from my day. My friend runs a brownies group, and they do pretty much the same things as my cubs do - so craft, sports, cooking, trips, camping, DIY, debates, climbing, archery, canoeing - all sorts of things!

Monkeytennis97 · Today 17:17

OP you have my sympathies, people can be so cruel.

I am a music teacher and musical director of a choir. When I was at school I auditioned for the school musical and was told by an alumna who auditioned me (she was on a v popular tv show in those days so it was a big deal) that I couldn’t sing. Hmm. Well I became head chorister at my church choir and have been a singing teacher on and off over the last 30 years as well as directing countless school choirs.

Some people are just awful!

Anarchy99 · Today 17:20

Monkeytennis97 · Today 17:17

OP you have my sympathies, people can be so cruel.

I am a music teacher and musical director of a choir. When I was at school I auditioned for the school musical and was told by an alumna who auditioned me (she was on a v popular tv show in those days so it was a big deal) that I couldn’t sing. Hmm. Well I became head chorister at my church choir and have been a singing teacher on and off over the last 30 years as well as directing countless school choirs.

Some people are just awful!

Were you any good at the time though?

MissNowt · Today 17:40

At our quite posh girls’ school, a first year always sang the opening carol at the concert. My older sister was very musical so the music teacher assumed I would be too. At the audition on the school stage - this barely audible little breathy whisper came out of my mouth “Once in Royal David’s City….”. I hadn’t even finished the first line when the music teacher shouted “Off!” Brutal - I was gutted!

Honestly I never sang again for 40years - not even by myself in the car.

Anyway at a party a few years ago, full of drink, I had a go on the karaoke & to my amazement I was quite good. We bought our own machine & I love it! I’m not Celine Dion obvs but I’m not bad at all.