Brownies incident stopped me singing, starting to see how messed up it was.

[Magenta82]

When I (44) was 8 I went to a big division meet up, not many people from my pack went. There was show put on by another group as part of their Entertainer badge, they played the spoons. Someone then described the award and I thought it sounded like fun. I went back and badgered the leaders until they agreed to do it.

We did a big group show for all the parents and everyone had to do an individual piece as well, some at the show and some on a normal Brownies night. I chose to do it at the show.

I decided to sing from my school hymn book (the blue one with the ugly kids on the front #4 Autumn Days), on my own, in front of everyone with no musical accompliment. The "judges" were 3 quite elderly ladies from some kind of group of retired Brownie leaders or something (trefoil?). They failed me. I didn't get the badge.

Now admittedly I can't carry a tune in a bucket but still! I was basically put off singing for life, gave up trying, if I was so bad I couldn't get a brownie bade I must be the worst in the world.

It seemed unjust at the time, but now I have a child in Squirrels I really just how fucked up it really was.

AIBU

With singing, if the child just sang badly (forgot the words and notes for instance), I would explain what went wrong and offer them the chance to try for the badge again a couple of months later, after more practice. Stressing that they do need to put thought and work into it to improve. Then they improve their skills and improve their work ethic (you need to work at some things, not just get a reward for minimal effort). If the child really can't sing in tune, I'd encourage them not to take the badge in the first place. They can take it when they're older, if appropriate. Some adults somehow manage to reach adulthood still not realising that they sing hopelessly out of tune. I was once in an unauditioned choir where one woman sang terribly out of tune, and it spoiled it for all the rest. Someone should have had the courage to tell her. Maybe a professional singing teacher could have helped her, I don't know.

I meant that, just because you are able to sing now, it doesn’t mean you could do so when you were a child. So she may have been correct at the time, and you have now acquired the skill at a high level since then.

You are really over thinking this! It's a brownie/cub badge. There won't be a chance again in a couple of months.

If we are working on the entertainer badge at cubs, we ask the cubs to do a short piece of entertainment, such as a sketch, play some music, tell jokes, sing a song.

We will practice one week, and put on the show for the parents the following week. If someone can't sing, then I might gently suggest something else for them do, or ask them to practice a bit - but if they want to sing, however badly, I'm not stopping them, or failing them.

That may well be true, but if you put a child off singing at a young age, they may never go on to discover how good they could be as an adult.

It sounds impossible to ‘fail’ - therefore it is meaningless. Kids may see the badge as something they have won but if they get them regardless of how well they do, it’s not the case.

I think it’s surprising that they don’t work it out when they are older!

So is the alternative to encourage them to do it despite the fact that everyone around them has to listen? Singing is one of those things that is inflicted on others in the vicinity!

They don't really 'win' a badge, they earn it. They earn it by giving the activity a go. With the majority of badges, there's no set standard to meet. It's not meaningless, just because there's no test/exam to pass/standard to reach.

Yes

I don’t get what’s to ‘earn’. It would be better to say ‘given’ if everyone gets one just for taking part

Wow. So that’s why so many people think it’s okay to inflict their hideously tuneless warbling on others!

I can’t be the only one who would have seen through that encouragement (unless it’s realistic like ’okay you aren’t great but you might be able to learn’) as insincere and meaningless

I can’t sing - I do enjoy it but I only do it if I’m out of earshot of others, because I’m considerate.

In the case of the Entertainer Badge, they earn it by taking part in a show.
In the case of the Backwoods Cooking Badge, they earn it by learning about how to light, look after, and cook on a fire.
In the case of the book reader badge, they earn it by reading 6 books, talking to us about them, and learning how to use a library, dictionary etc.

So badges are earned, not just given, because the children have to do something to earn them.

As I said, for the majority of badges, there is no test to pass, no skill level to reach. This is not true for a few of the badges, but these are the exception.
For the majority, by taking part in the activity, they will earn the badge. If they sit on the sidelines and don't take part, they don't get the badge.

You just make it very clear that you are encouraging mediocrity. It's dumbing down. Children are capable of so much more. I think that dumbing down - expecting very little and rewarding children for doing practically nothing - does nobody any favours in the long run.

It's not encouraging mediocrity, or dumbing down. It's encouraging children to take part in an activity, give it a go, see if they enjoy it. It might spark a whole new hobby or interest, in which case they may go on to do great things with that hobby. Or they might not, but we're exposing them to a world of possibilities. What's wrong with that?

I agree. It is a participation trophy, nothing else.

It’s a shame for those who do a great job and actually deserve a badge when they see their fellow brownies getting one for not doing very well. It’s probably a bit demotivating

Then why.not just do sessions to let them have a go? Why do they need something that is seen as an award?

Because that's not how scouting/guiding works, and has been working for over 100 years. The earning of badges is a big part of the ethos, and it covers a huge range of different activities. Scouting is more popular than ever right now, with most groups having huge waiting lists.

In my opinion (and the opinion of the majority of parents who send their kids), scouting works. It turns out good, adventurous kids who are willing to help others and give things a go.

You may not agree with the badge giving, but the kids love it, it helps them to stay engaged, and they have fun learning along the way. If you don't agree with it, don't send your kids. We won't be changing the system any time soon.

If that's the case, why do you need a judge? Everyone passes, so no judge is needed. Having a judge there and awarding a badge suggests, falsely, that the child has worked hard and achieved something significant. They almost certainly believe that they've achieved something important, and their parents probably believe it too. But in fact, they haven't, they've just had a quick go at something.

@budgiegirl Out of interest, have the badges become easier to get, over the years?

Not sure why they can’t be ‘engaged’ without a participation trophy but there you go. People obviously think it’s a good thing.

Will it horrify you to learn that we also have badges that are literally just for participating?! We have anniversary badges for every year they are a member (I have just got my 20 years' service award for volunteering, is that meaningless?) and then special occasion badges to mark certain events e.g. the coronation, 100th World Thinking Day etc. For those the only requirement is to be a member at the time of the event. Are they also pointless, or just a nice token to mark an occasion?

I kind of get long service awards for volunteers.

It doesn’t horrify me at all. But it appears that most badges are no different from giving them out for every year or to mark occasions. And that’s fine if everyone understands that having, say, a baking badge doesn’t mean you are a good baker, it just means you turned up and baked something.

And that’s fine if everyone understands that having, say, a baking badge doesn’t mean you are a good baker, it just means you turned up and baked something

It means that you learned how to bake something - even if the outcome wasn't quite what you'd hoped for. Perhaps that child will be inspired enough to go home and try again. We did the chef badge, and I know of at least two children who now cook regularly for their parents. They may not have done that if we didn't give them the inspiration in the first place.

Out of interest, have the badges become easier to get, over the years?. I'd say not in the 15 years I've been a cub leader.

Would the children not have been inspired through just doing the activity in their sessions?

Possibly. But you can be more sure that if they'd then been told they'd "failed" a badge for not being up to scratch, that inspiration would disappear pretty fast.

Probably, but I really don't see the problem with earning a badge in the process. It gives the cubs something to aim for, to put on their uniform to signify the things they've done, to aim towards getting the top badge by attending regularly and trying new things, and often pushing themselves out of their comfort zone zone. Their badges show their journey through scouting, which I think is a lovely thing, and they should be proud of them.

I get that you think all awards should be given on merit, not effort, and I can see why that should be the case with some activities, such as piano exams, karate gradings etc, where you move up to the next level. But that's not what cub/brownie badges are for, and it's not how they work. It's a different thing from many awards/exams. It's not an award in that sense.