Brownies incident stopped me singing, starting to see how messed up it was.

[Magenta82]

When I (44) was 8 I went to a big division meet up, not many people from my pack went. There was show put on by another group as part of their Entertainer badge, they played the spoons. Someone then described the award and I thought it sounded like fun. I went back and badgered the leaders until they agreed to do it.

We did a big group show for all the parents and everyone had to do an individual piece as well, some at the show and some on a normal Brownies night. I chose to do it at the show.

I decided to sing from my school hymn book (the blue one with the ugly kids on the front #4 Autumn Days), on my own, in front of everyone with no musical accompliment. The "judges" were 3 quite elderly ladies from some kind of group of retired Brownie leaders or something (trefoil?). They failed me. I didn't get the badge.

Now admittedly I can't carry a tune in a bucket but still! I was basically put off singing for life, gave up trying, if I was so bad I couldn't get a brownie bade I must be the worst in the world.

It seemed unjust at the time, but now I have a child in Squirrels I really just how fucked up it really was.

AIBU

Depends what the thing is. If it's putting someone in the recovery position, no, they need to be able to do that properly to be safe. If it's building a junk model that falls down, then probably yes. We might do what we can do repair or improve it, but ultimately it doesn't really matter if it works or not.

This whole thread is filled with people giving examples of where they were told as a child they weren't good at something, and it's stuck with them and affected them right into adulthood. Plenty of these posters probably actually could be ok singers or dancers etc, and get a lot of benefit and enjoyment from it, but have lost that because of a harsh word at the wrong time. I don't want to do that with my Brownies - we're a fun enriching club, not a test environment. I'd far rather they got a few badges that you might consider "meaningless," than put them off ever trying again.

To be fair the sound of children singing badly goes straight through me. I think it’s the pitch of their voices that does it - my ND means that high pitched noises can be physically painful.

But I think it’s okay to be realistic with them (diplomatically). You don’t want them to end up like some of the people on the X factor - convinced they have talent when they don’t!

But people can’t be good at everything. No need to be horrible to them about it of course but if in your example, someone makes a model and it falls apart but they get the badge anyway, surely at some point they realise that it wasn’t given because they made a good thing?

I am genuinely curious. It might be my ND but I would have realised that it was given for the sake of it rather than for doing something well and that would take the shine off it.

Maybe my thinking is why my experience of brownies and guides was hell!

You've reminded me that I auditioned for my school choir when I was 7 and was rejected. In secondary school, the music teachers made it clear that they accepted everyone in the choir and they seemed to look down on primary schools that had a selective choir. This was the early 2000s.

It did knock my confidence with singing for years but now I'm always making up songs around the house. My husband and the small beings seem to enjoy them anyway. Perhaps my inability to hold a note is part of the charm.

there's a lot of grey area inbetween telling a 9yo to mime and telling a tone-deaf 9yo they sound amazing and should be a pop star.

Most reasonable adults would encourage the effort rather than lie and say they sound like an angel.

If children singing badly would annoy you ( and I understand that point of view as I am really triggered by some noises) then the chances are you won’t often find yourself in that situation. Imagine telling a child to mime though. In front of everyone. It’s one of my worst memories.
I sympathise with you op. I mean I’m well aware I can’t sing as I’m sure you are. I still mime. Everywhere! Church, funerals, my own wedding.
I’m just so glad I’m so darn gorgeous even if I can’t sing a note 😜🤫

More solidarity here!
In my brownie pack, we were asked to record a group song for another brownie pack (possibly abroad, I can’t remember). I was about 7 or 8 and was singing my heart out, when “Tawnie Owl” interrupted and said “someone is singing flat, I think it’s you” and pointed at me. I was so shamed and humiliated. I didn’t sing in front of anyone again until I had my own kids who didn’t care how tuneless I was. I don’t deny that I can’t sing in tune but singing it something that is so joyful and given some encouragement many people can do. Just shutting kids down at a young age it so sad. Now I just sing in the car on my own. It makes me sad to think that so many kids who might enjoy this are shut out.

My dad (79) got told not to sing at school as a child as he was putting everyone else off. I have never heard him sing a note my whole life. It’s sad.

It depends on what the skill builder is. If it was first aid then no but if it was communicate then yes. There is only one correct way to do first aid but lots of different ways to communicate.

Listening to a child singing who sounds like a constipated puppy having its tail stood on is torture to be fair. Maybe The Recorder would have been a better choice or in my case, the triangle 😆.

Brownie badges were earned not just given away willy nilly.

Yeah that’s really weird. The badge was about performing… not being good at it lol.

🤣🤣🤣 That has made me laugh!

To make general comments on a topic, yes. Not to comment on a specific offer from one user to another.

No, that's not how it works. You want a private conversation, that's what PM is for. Anyone can enter into any exchange in a public thread. That's the point of it being public.

I wouldn’t PM another user in this particular scenario as that could look weird, as I was offering to send her something. I made the offer openly on the thread so that it wouldn’t look weird, and she could indicate whether she wanted to accept the offer or not. It wasn’t for anyone else to stick their oar in on what was clearly an offer from one user to another. It wasn’t a discussion point.

That's fine, but it's an open public space and you can't bar people from "wading in" because whatever. Anyone can respond to anything you post on a public thread. Just ignore it if you don't want to engage.

I’m with you, OP! Failed my Jester’s Badge by Peggy Crabtree, the District Commissioner because my acting was not of a sufficiently high standard, for a little play we had written. The other four Brownies passed. I never went near a stage again. Apparently I didn’t sound frightened enough when the ghost appeared.

Same here... I can stil feel the shame.
Never mind though... never stopped me singing Smack my Bitch up at full volume.😂

Fair point, and point taken. Thanks for making it nicely.

I was stopped from being in the recorder choir for playing left handed at around the same age I was a musical child i could genuinely been good at an instrument I could sight read notes sing well and compose musical intros as part of various group (when I was older obviously) but because I was singled out mocked and rejected made to feel less than I refused to put myself out there again with an instrument I would sing in a choir because you cant be a left handed singer so you cant "look odd and strange" but no instruments my mom went to the school and asked why I was the only girl not allowed to play (boys did something else) she was clearly told it was because I played left handed my mom explained I was ambidextrous i could most likely play right handed would they let me try...no ridiculous suggestion my mom was FUMING

The rejected remember the injustice stings and adults can suck

Its honestly such a shame as adults you should want children to feel good about themselves I was in a church group as an adult helping in a holiday kids club type thing we had one child who wrote out something but was too embarrassed to read it so another child was going to read it out except it was a wall of text LITERALLY nobreaksnospacesjustwords and "poorly spelt" words too BUT they were mostly spelled phonetically and I could read it so myself and another lady frantically translated and wrote out the entire piece minutes before the performance slapped it together he was so happy his mom was so proud and we were relieved we pulled it off 😀

Not missing the point at all. But effort is not measurable and counts for little in any case.
A badge should be an indicator of being able to do something to a set standard. If it’s given to kids for effort, they are going to have a shock when they get older and realise that the burnt cakes or whatever that they produced in Brownies weren’t very good and not really deserving of praise and award

Of course effort is measurable - at least in the sense that a guide or scout leader will be able to tell when someone is trying, and when they are messing around.

Not all badges have a 'set standard'. For instance, in cubs, the Art Badge will say 'make a clay model' or 'make a poster'. As long as those things are done with a decent effort on the part of the child, as a cub leader, I'm awarding the badge.

There are some badges that require a bit more of a standard ie the skater badge says 'demonstrate three manoeuvres', swimmer will say 'swim 25 meters'. So that's a bit more cut and dried - but actually, at the end of the day, the leader does have a bit of leeway to award the badge anyway, especially in the case of disabilities/sen etc.

I'm never failing a cub at the chef badge because they burnt some food - as long as they made the effort, and it wasn't because they didn't try.

I think many people here are muddling up the idea of badges with exams, such as music or ballet exams. It's really not the same thing.

I don't think we are in any danger of an epidemic of shit cooks who think they're brilliant because they got the baker badge in Brownies. Or of people in general thinking they are brilliant at something when they're not because they did the Brownie badge in it. I don't think Brownies is to blame even for all those shitty X Factor singers. (The producers who waved them through several auditions before they reached the televised one were to blame for that. It made them think they were passing because they were good, not because they were going to make brilliant TV by utterly humiliating themselves.)

If all these kids had just passed the badge, assuming no truly epic disaster (and then they could be encouraged to use what they learn from that to try again), then they probably wouldn't even remember they'd done it. It's become a seared in memory because they were made to feel shit about it, and it put plenty of them off doing the activity long term.

Exactly. I have seen young people leaving school and starting work and they are so used to having effusive praise for putting in the effort that they lose sight of the fact that it is irrelevant and that only results matter.
Kids can understand that there are things they may be good at and things they may not be good at. But giving them badges because they have bothered to turn up isn’t the way forward

There are plenty of places where young people learn they they are good at some things and not so good at others. School exams, auditions for plays, music exams, dance exams, sports clubs where they have to be good enough to make the team etc. Some of the badges at scouts/guides have a level to be achieved, especially in the older sections. In fact, there's a lot of pressure on young people these days to excel at certain activities.

But at Brownies? Nah. It should be all about having fun, making friends, learning to give back to the community, learning skills and introducing children to lots of activities - some of which they may go on to develop a greater interest in. If a leader is going to knock the confidence of a young child by failing them due to lack of perceived talent, then all you are doing at that age is putting them off an activity that they may otherwise have gone on to enjoy.

only results matter. What a sad way of looking at things that a child enjoys. That shouldn't be the ethos of scouting/guiding.

The OP didn't learn a skill though, did she? She got onto the stage and sang a song she'd sung in school Assembly. Very badly. No skill-learning was involved. Where badges involve someone judging that a skill has actually been learned, then that skill needs to be demonstrated. This is helping children to get used to thinking about what's involved, planning it, doing the work, etc. That's very useful learning, which they are deprived of if they pretty much just need to show up for the badge presentation.