Brownies incident stopped me singing, starting to see how messed up it was.

[Magenta82]

When I (44) was 8 I went to a big division meet up, not many people from my pack went. There was show put on by another group as part of their Entertainer badge, they played the spoons. Someone then described the award and I thought it sounded like fun. I went back and badgered the leaders until they agreed to do it.

We did a big group show for all the parents and everyone had to do an individual piece as well, some at the show and some on a normal Brownies night. I chose to do it at the show.

I decided to sing from my school hymn book (the blue one with the ugly kids on the front #4 Autumn Days), on my own, in front of everyone with no musical accompliment. The "judges" were 3 quite elderly ladies from some kind of group of retired Brownie leaders or something (trefoil?). They failed me. I didn't get the badge.

Now admittedly I can't carry a tune in a bucket but still! I was basically put off singing for life, gave up trying, if I was so bad I couldn't get a brownie bade I must be the worst in the world.

It seemed unjust at the time, but now I have a child in Squirrels I really just how fucked up it really was.

AIBU

It’s no skin off your nose, is it? It’s up to the OP, nothing to do with anyone else.

This thread has opened the floodgates regarding Brownie induced psychological trauma. Those wounds run deep.

I think those saying children should only get the badge when they've achieved the 'thing' are missing the point. The achievement is the effort. Some will never be able to sing beautifully, or bake a decent cake, or play chess (me), but putting in the effort and genuinely trying your best and doing as well as you possibly could do, is what they are rewarding. If someone just rocks up without practicing and sings a chorus without giving a shit, then no, clearly they won't get the badge. But the efforts and doing your best is what gets you the badge....

And I got my chess badge! 🎉 I'm not an amazing chess player, but I taught myself the moves and the rules, and though I lost, the effort of learning a new skill was rewarded. Early 1990s.

Why so defensive?

But if the result isn’t important, how do you judge how much effort people put in?

And at what age does it become clear that, out in the big bad world, effort is meaningless? If you are at work and have tried your hardest to complete a project but haven’t managed to finish it, is your boss going to be grateful for the effort?

It is actual results that matter as that can be judged by a set standard.

A child may be naturally talented at singing and not have made much of an effort, but does a good job and earns the badge.

Another child may have tried and tried to bake cakes but they never turn out well - regardless of the effort, they haven’t baked an edible set of cakes so why would they get the award?

OP says that she sang something from her school hymn book and sang it badly. She doesn't suggest that she put effort into choosing an entertaining piece suited to the audience, practised it, got feedback and then improved before performing it in public. If you just go on stage and sing a hymn you've sung in school assembly a couple of times, and you sing it badly, you don't deserve a badge.
If you want effort badges, regardless of achievement, then offer effort badges rather than achievement badges. But I suspect the OP didn't actually put much effort in anyway. And she says that she had no idea that it was possible not to pass and get a badge. So what were the judges for, then? This was a pass or fail situation, and the whole point of judges being there was for them to decide whether to pass or fail.
If everyone always passes, people won't put an effort in and the whole thing becomes about encouraging entitlement and mediocrity, rather than encouraging effort and the gaining of skills. Gaining skills is actually something worth encouraging, even at age 8.

Exactly. I have seen young people leaving school and starting work and they are so used to having effusive praise for putting in the effort that they lose sight of the fact that it is irrelevant and that only results matter.

Kids can understand that there are things they may be good at and things they may not be good at. But giving them badges because they have bothered to turn up isn’t the way forward.

It's really sad how a single humiliating experience in childhood can have such a lasting impact on confidence and self-expression. Adults working with children often don't realize that an offhand comment or public criticism can stay with someone for years. Stories like this are a good reminder that encouragement is far more powerful than embarrassment, especially when children are trying something they enjoy.
<a href="https://www.myoldnest.com/">My Old Nest</a>

I think the issue is that children now are praised for showing up - good for confidence until someone else shows up and tells them the truth, even constructively, then it’s devastating.

I sometimes think the insistence on kindness that seems to be a thing now is actually more harmful as it’s a shock to children to find that not everyone will applaud their existence and that the world values achievement rather than effort.

But then I grew up in the 70s and 80s where criticism and praise were doled out realistically.

What should have happened in OP's scenario is that it should have been made clear to the brownies, in relation to all badge attempts, that they were not guaranteed a pass and a badge, and would only get one if they produced a good result, as determined by the judges. And the brownie leader for their group should have had a chat with the brownie about what she would need to do to gain each badge. So in this case she should choose a song suited to the audience, should practise it and have a go at performing it in front of her parents, and make sure that she had it up to a good standard before the show. If this was a child who really couldn't sing in tune, then she should have been advised not to sing a song, but to do some other kind of performance. The judges were not at fault here.

I think brownie badges are very different now. There are interest badges and skills builder badges. Perhaps a good way of distinguishing between wanting to succeed at the skill and actually succeeding...

Or perhaps they should all be skills based with measurable success criteria

I believe that making an effort is, indeed, praiseworthy, but she should have been better prepared by her pack leaders at the stage when she considered entering; she could indeed have entertained by singing, but there were other options (she mentions that the performer she watched played the spoons, a skill I have never mastered!) If she wanted to entertain her audience, was recreating a run of the mill assembly captivating for her audience? would a comic monologue better fit her talents, or some acrobatics? I remember one visiting Guide having us all in stitches with her rendition of "The Lion and Albert".
When I was in the Guides, I reached the stage where I was going for my "all round cords", a blue and white cord round the junction of arm and shoulder, representing all-round effort as you had to gain badges from several different skill groups. As far as the various options for aspects of First Aid, I was spoilt for choice, but in others..... for one group, one option was Pathfinder, and I still remember Captain's tact and kindness pointing out my poor sense of direction, in steering me towards another option in that skill group, i.e. Map Reader, which, with some effort, I could gain.

What? How is it unjust to fail a badge when you freely admit you can't sing? Of course it's painful to fail things but that's not a reason to pass someone.

Some on the thread think that turning up is worthy of an award 🙄

It's a motivational trinket to keep kids engaged with the programme, not a GCSE.

Have a day off.

This is brilliant news! I must be owed literally hundreds of thousands of awards for turning up to all manner of completely ordinary things in my lifetime. I never knew I was so special. I was always rubbish at swimming can I retrospectively have my gold award?

That's not what people are saying at all 🙄 not sure if you are genuinely missing the point or not.

You can set up your own excellence standards for a fun after-school club whenever you want, you know. People will be queuing up I get, sounds well fun

Not missing the point at all. But effort is not measurable and counts for little in any case.

A badge should be an indicator of being able to do something to a set standard. If it’s given to kids for effort, they are going to have a shock when they get older and realise that the burnt cakes or whatever that they produced in Brownies weren’t very good and not really deserving of praise and award.

But I admit I’m biased because I found the Brownies and Guides to be quite unpleasant.

Not defensive, but there was no need for you to wade in.

I believe it’s a public forum, hence why I ‘waded in’.

In guiding we have Interest Badges, Skill Builder badges and Theme Award badges. To achieve the Theme Award badge the girls have to gain an interest badge for the relevant theme and a Skill Builder badge from the same theme. There are if I remember correctly (new badges have recently been added) 6 Interest badges for each theme in brownies. Therefore most girls will find something they enjoy. We have never given out a Skill Builder badge unless a girl has completed the activity to the best of her ability and nor have we ever given out a Theme Award without both of the other badges being achieved. We know our girls so we know when they are putting the effort in and when they can’t be bothered.

So do they get the badge if you judge they have made the effort but are unsuccessful at whatever it is?

I was asked to mime by my primary school teacher when I was about 9/10. I never sing now. Remind yourself it’s was them and not you.
I love to hear children sing and I couldn’t care if they don’t have a note in their head. They’ll learn that in their own time. It’s cruel to point it out when they’re so young and innocent.