AIBU to think refusing treatment from non-white medical professionals should have consequences?

[MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack]

There has apparently been a significant rise in racism towards NHS staff, with a growing number of people refusing to allow non-white NHS staff to treat them. This is sad but not surprising given the shift in society as a whole towards people expressing their racism much more openly.

https://news.sky.com/story/nhs-staff-experiencing-unconscionable-levels-of-racist-abuse-survey-finds-13569575

I have always admired the commitment of NHS staff who treat all patients with care and compassion, even when those patients are rude and abusive. But if people are actually refusing to let certain staff provide treatment, surely there should be consequences for this?

AIBU to think that everyone has the right to refuse treatment if they so wish, but if a patient refuses treatment from a medical professional simply because they don't like the colour of that medical practitioner's skin, then they should then forfeit the right to receive that treatment on the NHS. So they can either go without or find the money to be treated privately by a medical professional of their choice?

There would need to be signs warning people of the consequences of their choices, of course, but if someone doesn't want a Black or Asian radiographer carry out their x-ray, then fine... they just don't get an x-ray.

Well I am not saying I disagree with that view necessarily. You could be right.

I tend to assume that the sort of people you see out on right wing protest marches, expressing racist views, hanging flags etc, have probably always had these opinions but did not always feel they could express them. Then the rise in right wing political rhetoric seems to legitimise their views so they feel able to be more outspoken. Maybe this is being felt in the NHS?

I think in order to know that you would need to be able to compare the average number of racist incidents each non-white staff member experienced in a year compared to five years ago.

I mean....
If people are going to hold out for only people with British accents, good luck to them.
I am on a one year waiting list fot medical treatment so I will take anyone.

It also lists all the racist language used.
Calling people monkeys.
Calling them dirty foreigners.
Saying they are frightened of all black people.
Refusing to have your girlfriend/spouse treated by anyone from an ethnic minority.

Blatant racism.

I tend to agree that people have probably always held these racist views and that they just feel more free to openly express those views now.

So you're excusing it then. Therein lies the problem in tackling racism.

I don’t care about skin colour, I do care about being able to understand what is said.
when my brother in law was in A&E majors, with serious heart and breathing difficulties, two young men came in, one Eastern European, one possibly African. It took a good 5 minutes for my sister and I to realise they were talking about end of life care and how serious the situation was.

So the patients obviously didn’t struggle to understand him, did they?

It shouldn’t matter, as long as someone is ‘fully’ qualified , has an understanding of everything medical in this country and speaks good English , there shouldn’t be an issue . I’ve been seen by some amazing doctors from overseas , a lot of the consultants don’t have the arrogance a lot of the British ones do . I am white , born and bred in the Uk, not in great health and also have a rare
neuro condition which a lot of docs don’t understand about so I use the NHS a lot . I do worry though, that there’s a few staff that because of the shortage of medical staff in this country have jobs in the NHS that they aren’t properly qualified for or come over here to train. This may cause a very sick person distress , maybe not understanding what they are doing or saying . My Auntie who has now passed away was very confused and frightened by her care workers who she couldn’t understand, and when she tried to speak to them she didn’t understand what they were saying or she was totally ignored. There is such a huge range of care work within the NHS, the question by the OP would depend on the situation surely ?

That should be so simple

Anyone is allowed to refuse any practitioner, male, female, colour for their own care, there should be stricter rules to protect their children.

There should be no right or expectation that you can demande any colour, religion, gender, sex.

You can express a preference for a specific doctor, many of us have a GP we would prefer to see. If they are not available, it's someone else and if you don't like it, too bad. It can't be that serious if you refuse medical care.

You can't however refuse police or firemen because it will impact others and not just you. If you don't like a black fireman or a female policewoman, you are allowed your feelings but no one cares and you keep them to yourself.

Some are saying all sorts of things constitute racism eg calling out language and communication difficulties and asking for staff patients can understand( seen as refusing to allow staff to treat them), having concerns re accessibility to uk trained staff, concerns re cultural attitudes to vulnerable patients etc

Out and out racist abuse is obviously never ok however if you are saying that asking for alternative staff is always racist I am saying it’s more complicated than that. And also that we as taxpayers should be allowed to question a system that means we are wasting money on training uk staff whilst we recruit staff from abroad.

It seems ok to me to want to be treated by someone who has an accent you understand and who respects you. There is so much racism towards whites now that it is perfectly understandable for a white person to not feel comfortable with non whites.

I disagree with sex. I requested a female radiographer for a recent mammogram.

Of course, if I had a lump or worries, I would have taken a man.

Not sure if anyone else answered the pp but it’s pretty obvious from the quotes in the article that these were statements from white people, calling people ‘dirty foreigners’ and refusing to let anyone of non-white ethnicity treat their partner (not the only thing wrong with that man either).

But all you are really doing is asserting that they're different (and different enough that one is acceptable to request and one is not). You are not setting out cogent reasons as to why.

Your reasons why requesting same sex care is OK are:

1. You think a woman will have a better understanding of your anatomy because she had the same. I think this is pretty weak given all the doctors will have the same training, but OK. But on the same logic, is it acceptable and respectable for a woman with FGM to request care from someone from her same ethnic background in the basis they will be more likely to understand her anatomy? If not, why not?

1. You would feel more embarrassed around a male doctor. OK. So by the same token, if someone would feel more embarrassed around a white doctor, it's acceptable to request someone who is not white? If not, why not, where embarrassment is the legitimate factor?

1. You say that of course some male doctors are pervs. OK. So if the data also shows that some doctors of a particular ethnicity are pervs, that is also an acceptable reason to request the care of a different race. If not, why not?

1. You have people who have been raped and can be traumatised by a man touching their genitalia. OK. You also have people who have been raped and can be traumatised by a man (or woman) of a particular ethnicity touching their genitalia. I note that you skirted by example of the victims of the grooming gangs as an example of someone who may have race-specific trauma.

If all your reasons are respectable ones for raising the care of a particular sex, they are also respectable ones for refusing care of any other demographic.

Just asserting "sex and race are different" does not make it true and it's not persuasive.

For full disclosure I generally speaking don't have any particular preference along sex or race lines so I don't have any skin in the game, but we do have to treat everyone fairly and I don't think it's acceptable to say one person's trauma or discomfort is legitimate, but another's isn't, just because.

Oh, I see! Non-white people don't respect whites now. 🙄

Have you ever experienced racism from a doctor of a different ethnicity than your own?

Yes this is wrong isn’t it. All in the name of DEI!

It wouldn’t be so bad if they came on time limited visas so they’d have to return home after a set period having broadened their experience.
Perhaps they do these days,I don’t know

For perspective, in my NHS career, I deliberately moved into differing specialities to gain a wider level of experience and broaden my horizons before settling on a speciality.

.
We are poaching qualified staff from countries that paid for their costly training and need them to stay.
This country should be training our own and tying them in to a 10 year post qualification contract with the NHS to pay back some of the huge training costs involved.

One point I’d make from experience, is the language skills and/or accents of those coming from abroad.

I’ve had to stand beside elderly folk and translate questions whilst a foreign doctor assessed their mental capabilities. Crazy.

It’s already a struggle getting older, then you’re made to feel incompetent when you can’t understand what the doc is asking!!

But none of the reasons you’ve cited are about skin colour, they’re about medical need. A woman who has suffered FGM is likely to be referred to a (male or female) doctor or practitioner with specialist knowledge. A person who has experienced trauma that is triggered by certain characteristics has a medical need to see a particular practitioner. Being a bellend who doesn’t want a black or brown person to touch ‘your woman’ (as cited in the article) is not a medical need.

All of this. And bodily autonomy - which includes the right to refuse anybody at all to touch you for any reason without being grilled, shamed or abused - is still a human right. However gleefully the OP would strip others of that right.

So is it ok for Australia to poach British doctors? Or NZ? Or Dubai?

I would think the natural consequence would be that anyone who wants to be treated by a particular ethnicity (including Asian or Black etc patients wanting a doctor of their own ethnicity) would have to potentially wait longer for treatment. That seems like a reasonable consequence.

I don't think that withholding medical treatment altogether is reasonable. After all, if doctors treat rapists and murderers, they should treat (potential) racists too.

She’s saying you can refuse. You just can’t demand someone else take the place and provide treatment because you’re racist.

The OP is not talking about mental illness or dementia or being unconscious. You are reaching.
She's talking about people who say outright " I don't want a monkey to treat me". As the article says.

I think they should treat everyone, criminal history is nothing to do with it, but shouldn’t be forced to treat anyone who racially abuses them. Would you expect them to treat patients who were physically violent (aside from those who lack capacity).

Exactly.