Is it ever ok for a child to hit a child back?

[dobbledo]

If a child is constantly being hit by a younger sibling 2 years younger and smaller than them with SEN is it ever ok for them to hit them back?

100% OK. My son was bullied/hit constantly when he was about 8 by a boy in his school, all the school said was the bully was SEN. During the summer holidays my DH taught him how to box and defend himself.

Within 2 days of return to school bully boy started hitting my son, who retaliated very well.

The bully boy never touched my son again and moved onto others.

Would do it again.

Oh OP this is hard. I agree with PP on the violence, but I do wonder if there are other things you can do to make your life a little easier on things like the wilful pyjama behaviour.

Eg there is no universe in which I'd have had that fight, I couldn't be doing with it. It's very easy to give advice and of course you know your own child best, so take what's useful and disregard the rest but broadly:

I use the tools from How To Talk So Little Kids Will Listen. Make it a game, make it playful. The old fashioned ones work best in our house. I bet you can't get your jammies on by the time it takes me to go downstairs and get a glass of water. If that doesn't work, I explain: boys who don't wear pyjamas will get uncomfortable at night. When I feel like there's going to be an escalation, I won't instruct or ask, because it just gives them the tools for defiance. Making it their idea is a great thing.

But of course I don't always have the energy or emotional wherewithal for that, and sometimes it doesn't work, so I've just started being a bit FAFO about it, and just state natural consequences really clearly. If you don't wear pyjamas, it's likely you won't be able to sleep/will wake up uncomfortable, and just to be clear, if that happens in the middle of the night, I will not get up to help you.

Sometimes very calmly stating the natural consequence, not the manufactured one, seems to work. Sometimes it doesn't, so I stick to my guns.

But it's hard, and laid out like this makes it sound so easy and that's not real life. But as others have said, you have a duty to keep your other child safe so you are going to need to tackle it somehow

Good! Hope school didn’t try to punish your son!

Are you sure it’s ODD? I’m sceptical about that diagnosis. Have they been assessed for Autism?
Have you tried completely ignoring them when they hit and making a massive fuss of your eldest? Big cuddles and commiserations, a treat to make them feel better, a cold compress etc.
Why do they need to put their pyjamas on? If they aren’t going to then they can sleep in their clothes or naked, it really isn’t that important. You’re fighting a losing battle with things like that.
Are they worse with you take screens away etc? Make things easy for yourself and choose carefully what your consequences will be. Also consequences don’t work at all for lots of children. You need to find another way if that’s the case.

Yes, I think it's ok for a child to hit back.
Why should they just take it.
Same with school bullies, if you can hit them back ,doso

Exactly, I always think that those who say “oh no! You can’t retaliate!! Be kiiiind!!” Are the parents of the violent attackers!

They called us in as bullies parents complained. My husband said as they're not prepared to stop it he did. School just left it. But the kids started hitting others instead.
My son still boxes to this day too, hes 26. Never been in a fight outside of the ring since that day too.
Only language bullies understand.

100%. Don't start fights but always finish is the best advice.

stating the natural consequence, not the manufactured one

Thanks for this, @MayWelland. I don't know when 'consequence' became a euphemism for 'punishment' but I can't help feeling that it's very misleading! Losing device access isn't a consequence of being rude to a relative, for instance, and there's no useful life lesson in linking the two.

Being hit back is a common consequence of hitting people, though; that tracks.

When my sister walloped me back it was the last time I ever hit her. She wasn’t right and she got told off, but I sure as hell didn’t do it again. I do think it’s different with SEN though, I could understand what was going on, a child with SEN might not be able to.

If the younger child definitely has ODD then I think you might have a less stressful time with either giving them a choice of pyjamas or not insisting they put on the pair you have told them too.

I don't know a great deal about it, but I used to frequent the adopters board on adoption UK and I do recall one mother being at the end of her tether with one child who was subsequently diagnosed with ODD. Cue a complete reversal of parenting, giving a couple of choices where possible (not too many as that is overwhelming) and not fighting every battle did show a definite improvement.

You do need input from outside agencies to help you parent if ODD is present, so SS, Camhs, Care for Carers - go to them all to try to rustle some outside support.

But I reiterate my previous post - DS1 needs some respite.

I love this and will definitely try with my oppositional 4yo. But what do you do if you really don't have time to wait? Getting ready for school etc? I get so frustrated waiting for the faffing that I end up shouting and giving the reaction which I know is ultimately counterproductive.

The pyjamas weren’t so much the issue as they symbolised getting ready for bed, by refusing to put pyjamas on was basically saying I’m not going to bed and will be back downstairs in the lounge in a moment so go and put your pyjamas on means time for bed but older one stays up so youngest protests.
We have looked and can separate the bunk beds, meaning younger will have to sleep in our room and older can stay put but there is no tv in our room and they will not be happy about it at all but will know why.
There is openly no respect and we often get called names and told we are hated, there is so much contempt,
eye rolling and mimicking our words in silly voices,
not to mention the shut ups and don’t care when spoken to or attempt at reasoning with.

Your younger dc really rules the house don’t they! That behaviour is appalling!

what’s the pda or odd response when they get their
behaviour returned? So anything asked for is a no!!!

Other than losing a pound I’d put real consequences in place, extra needs or not, it is not okay to keep hitting knowing it will just cost you a pound, if anything you set a challenge to see how long the money lasted.

The father should be dealing with the violence, not encouraging it, remove the hitter every time. If you have to turn your downstairs into a bedroom to separate them, do that.

Clearly the older child doesn’t want confrontation if they haven’t hit back yet, parents need to deal with it.

Your younger needs this - he rules the roost and is violent

This. The world is not going to tolerate this, best they learn from you.
The sooner you realise they’ll burn out eventually it helps you not pussy foot around violence. Make a calm down area in the corner of your bedroom
or downstairs and put them in there.
Explain beforehand that this will be done and it is to help calm them down.

You’ve posted in AIBU but you might be better off posting on the SEN boards for support or you’ll get irrelevant unhelpful replies from people who have no SEN experience.

This isn’t a typical bully getting their comeuppance and never hitting again, this is a complex situation that needs careful handling to support all family members (including parents!). You don’t mention accessing any external help (or what the SEN is although sounds AUDHD to me) but I think you do need external support here before too long as it’ll be much harder the older they get and teen hormones kick in.

They would say yes I am and then whack me.
The persistent attitude only weakens as it turns into meltdown and then the story is rewritten and they didn’t do anything, we just started being mean, if they hit their sibling it was only because…. or but they made them do it, lie, twist or deny it until blue in the face actually quite convincingly with real tears because of unfair accusations against them I could actually believe them if it wasn’t that we would have just seen them do it.

Op he's just gonna get bigger stronger and angrier until he hits the wrong person when over the age of criminal responsibility in 2 years and finds himself in actual trouble.

Yes. I am.

if a child is at physical, emotional or psychological risk as a result of the abuse of another sibling and the parents contact them to express concern they absolutely engage and support.

ETA they responded very quickly for our family and were involved with us for more than 6months working with CAMHS and multiple agencies.

As for hitting, I would never advocate on hitting back unless it was the only way to stop an ongoing attack. Children in particular are not able at that age to decide what is proportionate as a defence, particularly if angry and retaliating. I’ve seen a child who was told to hit back get it totally wrong when a lad was accidentally pushed into them causing his elbow to hit the child’s head, and the child then turn round and punch the lad resulting in a concussion. The child insisted they had been hit on purpose, even though there was no evidence to support their view and the two adult witnesses saw the incident confirmed that.

Adults should not be putting that expectation to behave in a rational manner onto young children. Adults should be stepping in to manage it instead.

Who cares if he wears pjs? Not a battle worth fighting and you’re giving him dopamine. Also if you actually did it as “put your pyjamas on” there may be more effective approaches you can take. Gamification, indirect demands etc. he is controlling the outcome for a reason.

so eg

”I wonder if I can put my pjs on faster than you”
”once your pjs are on, we can read a story / play a game / nice thing he likes”

I feel sorry for both your children, the youngest sounds very very unhappy which is of course making the oldest unhappy

my DD was the same

I hate the term “consequence” now. It’s lost its actual meaning. Parents started using it when “gentle parenting” became more of a thing.

Punishment became this horrific act that equated to beating children. “Of course I don’t PUNISH my children. This isn’t the 1980s!! I use natural consequences” 😇

I fully understand the term “natural consequence” and I totally agree with the concept. It works very well in many situations. But not all. And that’s what a lot of people don’t get.

It is supposed to be something that just happens if the child doesn’t do/does do something. So don’t wear shoes = gets cold wet and sore feet. Won’t wear a coat = feels cold. Smashes a toy = toys breaks so can’t be used anymore. But that morphed into the term natural consequences being used wrong. I see SO many people on here saying they only use natural consequences and examples include a “natural” consequence of a toy being removed. A treat taken away. Removal from a place. Etc etc. Those are punishments whether they like it or not. So now a lot of people mostly dropped the “natural” part and have just moved on to calling it consequences. Even though it is still punishment whether you like it or not.