Is it ever ok for a child to hit a child back?

[dobbledo]

If a child is constantly being hit by a younger sibling 2 years younger and smaller than them with SEN is it ever ok for them to hit them back?

Also agree with the “don’t start it but finish it” The oh turn the other cheek/walk away nonsense just teaches that some children are the ones that can hit, others have to ‘be kind’ and be hit and not retaliate…

We never find talking about it helps as if it's later the child doesn't remember!
He is now 14 and still very very unlikely to remember what happened.

We do not now sit with the dysregulated child or shut them in their room. We tried this and both ways didn't work, just made them worse. We now sit with the child who's been hurt, and this means the other child gets bored of getting no response and will go off and calm down.

I don't think that any of us here know how your 8 year old would react to being hit and I don't think it's helpful to speculate.

OP I think that you need to be prepared to make the 8 year old leave the room when they are being violent and not back down. Keep taking them out when they come back in.

You need one of those harnesses that literally pins them to the seat in this case. Put your older child in the front and keep him safe from his violent sibling.

And yes as others have said you need to remove your younger child every single time he attacks his brother, why is "he objects to it" a reason to not do it??

I'm also guessing his violent and dangerous behaviour in the car had no consequences, I think even you would have been reasonable to hit him back in that situation tbh.

You may have to hold them outside the room and tell them that they cannot go in for a certain amount of time- make sure they know why
are you getting support of any kind

you need to make it very clear to your younger child that they are not allowed to behave in a way that upsets their older sibling

Then you call social services and ask for help, because your older child is at risk and deserves safeguarding. You need family support. That may mean in home support, etc but you are unwittingly condoning the behaviour of your younger child. You need help in making it clear that his behaviour is unacceptable. It may be that he needs medication or a change in medication - but you cannot continue in a situation where you elder child is physically (and emotionally and psychologically at risk) and where normative daily activities, such as driving the car put both the occupants of your car and others on the road at serious risk of injury and death.

This is a crisis situation and you need to respond as such.

So the 14 yo never remembers his violence against people? Do they go out alone?

Yes absolutely, I can’t believe people would advise their child not to defend themselves. They aren’t punchbags. Sometimes all it takes is hitting back once and if doesn’t happen again. What would you do if someone was repeatedly hitting you? Stand there?

That’s great that that works for you but can you appreciate it’s not a one size fits all and from what OP says that may not be the best advice for her?

Yes, I teach my child to hit back anyone who hits him. The people that are saying it's never ok to hit...what are you teaching your child to do if someone hits them?

I’ve said this before at my son’s school (as police): there is not a court in the land that would convict you for proportionate self defence.
Telling teacher will not sort it and if the sibling is hitting and they get a slap back they will soon learn the hard way.

Are you speaking from experience here? Because I dont believe for a second that SS will see this as a priority.

I have been upstairs to tell youngest to get pyjamas on and they said no, I said put your pyjamas on, no! Repeat 10 times but when I try to reach them from the top bunk they just sit there and I can’t drag them because they’re too heavy so they don’t get their pyjamas on and Dh comes up to help.
I went out with eldest child to run some errands and when I got back Dh was still up there an hour later repeatedly saying put your pyjamas on and the youngest is still repeating no but chuckling like it’s a game while Dh reaches despair.
It’s not as easy as what consequences because there are none left and still the behaviour is the same, there is physically nothing we can do to make them, if I physically put the pyjamas on they just take them back off, it’s all about power and winning for in the youngest eyes between two burnt out parents and a relentless child who will not lose, argues, hits out and relentlessly back chats because they need the last word.
Any pre-warning of a consequence will be met with a counter consequence if that consequence should be carried out, this child has no fear of consequences and no intention of doing anything they are told.
The only time this comes to an end is when they are so physically worn out they meltdown until exhausted.

Why does he need to put his pjs on?

He is feeding on conflict and attention. Stop letting him.

You seem to have lost sight of the important stuff that you should stand your ground on and don’t back down for a second, like hitting your other child, and the stuff that really really doesn’t matter and should be ignored such as sleeping in pants.

@dobbledo It really sounds like he’s doing it for attention, it’s about picking battles, he wants to sleep in day clothes and be uncomfortable, poor him, he can deal with it.
Assaulting his brother, an absolute no, no tv, mobile treats or anything. Stop pandering

It's very hard @dobbledo

Your youngest sounds very oppositional, have you read anything about parenting an oppositional child?

One piece of advice - pick your battles. At the moment your youngest is getting a lit of attention (albeit negative) from refusing / disobeying. Pajamas are not worth fighting about.

You’ve just got to keep on. Over an hour I don’t know how restrained you are because heavy or not between to adults you can get this child off that top bunk with little risk of hurting them. I’ve had full blown rows with my kids & I would say they’ve behaved this way themselves especially my youngest but it hasn’t been ongoing. I think whatever you’re doing you’re being to soft. A child shouldn’t fear their parents but they should have some respect. Your child doesn’t care about the consequences because either they’re not firm enough or you don’t stick to the threat. If losing their privileges doesn’t make them behave maybe making them earn them will. Take everything away tv, screens and any clubs they do and only let them do them if they’ve been good. Instead of taking them away if they’re bad give it them when they’re good. But restrict it. If they’ve been good the previous day let them have it a few hours before bedtime. Any nice jollies you have planned in the holiday. Plan tj for when both of you are at home. If they play up don’t take them but take the oldest

I really feel for you, he doesn't sound like he cares about losing any privileges, and while his behaviour is unacceptable, you need to find a different way to parent him, for now at least.

Forget the pyjamas, after an hour it's just a battle of wills. You could force him down but who needs that upset?

Children with ODD rarely respond well to reward systems or withdrawal of privileges. It's thought to be a neurological glitch, whereby direct orders - and direct requests - feel like attacks.

I have some sympathy with this: I hate being told what to do. I'm just glad it isn't a full-blown disorder with me, as I can see how hard it would make everyday life.

Parents and teachers can learn how to find the roundabout ways of communicating effectively with ODD children. The core idea is to allow the child to decide for themselves to do the thing. Yes, it's very trying and exhausting!

With violence, though, it hardly matters what the underlying causes may be. Think about that after you've succeeded in containing or preventing it.

So I have no idea if this would work but at some point he's going to ask you for something, I'd just point blank refuse any and all of his requests. If he's not ever willing to do anything you ask then don't do what he asks/wants at all.

He isn't aggressive any more, except in really extreme circumstances. Last one I remember distinctly was when an adult shouted right in his face, over a year ago, many witnesses agreed the adult was totally out of order, DS was being cheeky, also agreed by adult witnesses, the adult was (eventually) apologetic.
He remembers if he's done something like that but discussing why is pointless because he wouldn't remember why or have access to the reasoning at the time.
So while I'm not confident that if someone hit him randomly in the street he wouldn't hit back it's luckily rare. I've been hit randomly in the street once in my life and I froze.
My point was not that he doesn't remember doing it but he never used to remember why - so at the time it was a problem, if we thought talking to him about why he was aggressive would work, it didn't.
But luckily all the other techniques and better medication have helped.
In fact he said to me today (we were watching a police reality programme) "I used to do that at school, I used to tell everyone to shut up, but I don't do it now".

Fully agree with PPs that pyjamas are not an issue worth an hour of confrontation! You can easily get hung up on 'making' a child do what you want, but it's always worth asking yourself why.

I once let a little boy walk to school barefoot - I had his shoes & socks in my bag, ready for when he realised winning this battle had made his feet sore. Pyjamas, though? People can sleep in their clothes, it does no harm.

Why does he need to put his pajamas on? Don’t make everything a battle if it doesn’t need to be. I have a very similar 6 year old and we are learning just to let some things go and focus on the important things like the hitting. She doesn’t want to sleep in pajamas so we don’t make her, she has some out ready to put in if she wants but she doesn’t have to. What she sleeps in is the least of our concerns.

@dobbledo with the refusal of a direct request, both of mine do this, both diagnosed with ADHD. If there is a "next" then I say "first put on your PJs, then I'll put your audio book on".
Then you do not repeat. This is key. Say less.
You just stand there and look not bothered.

I usually recommend reading a book... For some reason this makes me look even less interested in whatever I asked them to do.

Incidentally a friend is working as a school support worker says this was a key emphasis in her training - say less.