Is it ever ok for a child to hit a child back?

[dobbledo]

If a child is constantly being hit by a younger sibling 2 years younger and smaller than them with SEN is it ever ok for them to hit them back?

It doesn't sound like giving DC10 permission to hit back will work in any event if they are a gentle soul.

You have to ensure that it isn't physically possible for DC8 to hit DC10.

If you can't keep DC10 safe then they can't share a room- one of you will have to sleep with DC8 instead. Same in the car - DC10 should go in the front with a parent sharing the back seat with DC8

The younger one needs to be helicopter parented , and also sleep in with parents. The eldest needs save space away from this piss poor parenting.

I don't understand why you can't separate them when there are two of you.

This. Just keep them apart. If you need to you physically restrain the younger one from going near the older one. Learn how to restrain the youngest appropriately and do that.

This sounds like an absolute nightmare for both children i feel so sorry for them

I tried to put eldest in the front and the youngest was so furious they repeatedly kicked the back of my chair and pulled my head back by my hair so I couldn’t see where I was going until they let go, while simultaneously kicking the sibling until undoing their seat belt and climbing in the front and sitting on top of them.

Not safe when trying to drive and their dad is at work.

OP this is a very difficult situation but the issue here is DS2s behaviour and I think the first priority right now should be protecting DS1 whatever it takes. If that involves you sharing with DS2 so be it. Maybe you and DH take one child each on alternate days and have a little time together in the evenings. I think you need to all accept that family time simply doesn't work for your family, that's really upsetting but that's what it is for now. With a lot of work and patience you might get to a better place in a few months.

I found the book '123 magic' to be really good for difficult oppositional behaviour. It's aimed at all kids but was specifically recommended to me by CAMHS in Ireland for oppositional and SEN children.

I don't agree with telling them to hit back. I didn't agree when my GS was told that by his father. He did and it worked and it left me unsure.

It’s going to happen and would be totally understandable when it does. And it might actually teach the younger one not to do it.

As a parent it is your job to ensure that the younger one learns to behave, to supervise, de-escalate and separate them before the hitting by the younger one starts. If they are learning disabled and you feel the younger one cannot learn this, then you need to put safeguarding measures in place to ensure your older child is protected and retaliation is not needed. The elder child has a right to be protected and prioritised at times too.

Your question should really be: is it ever okay to just allow a younger child with SEN to be physically abusive and potentially dangerous in their behaviour towards an older child? The answer is, of course, no.

If you need help managing the younger one and supporting the older child, I would speak to your health visitor and or someone at NAS.org.uk for parenting support and SEN oriented parenting classes.

ETA They can help with the violent acting out and strategies to de-escalate so that you can be safe when driving. You can also contact social services for parenting support - there is a safeguarding issue for your older child so they should step in and offer family support and possibly offer the elder child counselling and respite (they did this for mine).

Shut the door. Lean on it. Ignore shouting.
We've had to do this with DS when he was younger and more aggressive. We no longer talk to him when he's dysregulated as it just made him worse - he got excited about the fuss.
He doesn't bother now because he doesn't get the adrenaline thrill of people shouting/making a fuss.

DS1 is not the parent here, you absolutely must not encourage him to start hitting back in order to correct your younger son's behaviour. Your husband messed up with the 'compensation' scheme, but isn't DS1's job to fix it.

I wouldn't normally suggest this, but you need to come to some alternative sleeping arrangement so each boy can have their own room. If that means you and DH in the lounge then that is what needs to happen. On holidays you need to take a child each. Your DS1 is a child, he is only human, he needs his own space away from his younger brother where he can feel safe.

The boys only have a 2 year age gap, you can't keep saying oh DS1 is smaller and younger and he has SEND, none of that excuses this behaviour. No more excuses

Do you describe them to others as “feisty” that’s generally used as a positive term… as in “gosh they are just a little firecracker! It’s so funny and cute!”

what were the repercussions for this appalling, violent dangerous behaviour in the car,

The older child needs to give them a good hit back. People act like this because they get away with it

This.

You are the parent OP, you need to separate them. No child should ever be being hit “constantly” in their own home and 8 isn’t a baby either, those hits will hurt.

It's not okay for either child to hit. However it's understandable that if you are being constantly hit you are going to lose it and hit back sooner or later, the adult in charge should intervene before it gets to this point.

If you have no option to separate them other than putting a lock on the door, then you know it’s time to go to the GP and ask for help.

Most people have this issue from time to time with kids but the adult can block the disruptive child from leaving the time out space and enforce the boundary of separate rooms. If you can’t do that because it’s happening so frequently there’s a real issue you need help with.

You stop the younger hitting the eldest one. Hitting back in self defence because the person hitting you WILL NOT STOP hitting you unless you hit back sounds reasonable. Having to hit back frequently because your parent is TOO LAZY to stop your sibling hitting you is not reasonable.

You say "nothing we try works" but MOST of the time that your child could hit his brother, they should be in different places so it should be impossible. If they are usually in the same place, but he usually hits, then you are deliberately failing to safegaurd your other child.

We have also had this.
What works (though it isn't necessarily what we've tried every time or what we tried first) is to stop the car as soon as this happens, and wait till it is calm. Rinse and repeat. Talk calmly to the child in the front (our DC with less needs is a little younger, we did have a time when DC2 was too small to go in the front but any messing about in the back caused the same result - stop the car, no talking till everyone is calm enough to go again).
I assume you have your child locks on in the back.

You can also employ this tactic if they are both in the back, or use the "if you can't sit calmly with X, X will go in the front".

It also helps if you praise them for sitting calmly (even if just for a couple of minutes!)

If ever there was a situation where the younger one needed to be hit back, this is it!

”don’t throw the first punch, throw the last, hit back, hit back and hit harder”

Now putting my tin hat on!

So your youngest has learned for the price of £1 he can hit someone...

He needs to be removed from the room, and this needs to be enforced.

Agree with others that yes, older sibling will hit back as he doesnt see himself as someone's punch bag. (And neither should he). Are you teaching him to accept abuse?

Your poor older child ! He should feel safe in his own home, God knows what this is doing to him

Agree, if younger son is enabled to keep hitting his brother and parents even when in the car, because ds1 gets to sit in the front, so ds2 gets pandered to and sits in the front, what next, doesn’t get what he wants and grabs the steering wheel?

Then I’m really sorry, but it is not safe for you to drive in the car with your youngest without another adult present, regardless of where anyone is sitting.

It sounds as though you need a lot of support with your youngest. Teaching your eldest to hit him is not the answer. It is not his responsibility to try and get your youngest to modify his behaviour. It is yours.

Of course it’s never okay, but it is somewhat inevitable

Then they can't be in the car together. It's too dangerous.

🤯

If you must drive with both of them, then you need to restrain DS2 more. Perhaps physically with the help of physical aids... because that is bloody dangerous and you could kill someone on the roads.