Is it ever ok for a child to hit a child back?

[dobbledo]

If a child is constantly being hit by a younger sibling 2 years younger and smaller than them with SEN is it ever ok for them to hit them back?

Sorry OP but you have to stop this now otherwise your eldest will either snap or start to resent both their sibling and you for allowing this to go on for so long. You need to remove the youngest from the situation, the eldest absolutely should not be removed they did nothing wrong. Pick your youngest up and take them out of the room. If it were me, I would put them in their bedroom close the door and hold it shut outside, let them know I am there but I would not open the door until they calmed down. If in the car the youngest is taken out immediately (if safe to do so) and you wait until they calm down. As a PP suggested I wouldn’t be driving with both of them if I could help it.

If there was a sure way to stop them hitting then I would do it but nothing we try works.
There is.
It is in multiple steps but it works.
The younger one is hitting because a) it's fun and gets a response, like having a life size squeaky toy b) everyone makes a fuss when it happens which is also fun c) the right consequences aren't in place d) their impulse control is very poor.
I have left out here e) something hurts/is bothering the younger one as generally that can lead to aggression but more likely against the person who is seen to be the source of the bother (for us that's usually something like making them put on new clothes because of sensory issues) and f) they are actively getting rewarded for hitting - my DS worked out that if he was aggressive in class he got taken out to do colouring.

You haven't specified what SEN your DC2 has but if it's ADHD then the best way to help them is get the right medication.
After that, the response (from the sibling) and the fuss (from everyone else) needs to go away. Withdraw the sibling immediately and don't respond. If in the car, stop the car, stop talking. If at home, you and the sibling go into a room you can shut the door of. Ignore all shouting and banging.

With our DS, he is quite eager to be allowed screen time, so this is contingent on acceptable/expected behaviour and "jobs" (e.g. maths homework, set the table, don't hit your sister). Your child may be different - but the language that you use helps "This morning I'm expecting you to put those books back on the shelf, not hurt DC1, and get dressed. When you've done that I will play a game with you". Pick short time frames (an hour, a morning) and don't bother with sticker charts.

And you will get worse behaviour before you get better behaviour. Read up on the extinction burst.

If this carries in, your eldest will run away from home. He has no space, no peace and zero protection from his parents. It doesn’t sound like he has a violent bone in his body, removing himself from the situation is a far more likely scenario than him hitting his brother.

you and his bad need to put yourselves between them, all the time.

Many years ago, I looked after youngsters with severe learning disabilities and one in particular was very troublesome when in a car if she couldn't get her own way, I was given a crelling harness as a help to restrain her which helped, would one of these be any good for your child? Safety should be priority, I do feel for you, I'm sure you've tried so much and I really don't think people who don't have the problems you have really understand the strain you are under, it takes its toll. You need to address this now though, ask for help if you haven't already done so, it's not going to get any easier and your older child needs to feel safe in his own home.

So after that frankly dangerous car journey please do tell me what houdini harness type restraint you are using for the youngest in the back to keep them safe whilst the eldest sits safely in the front?

It’s extremely tough - I get that.

But you need to be far more proactive in managing these situations rather than just resigned to them happening.

Both your children’s futures depend on it.

Your younger child with SEN deserves to be taught how to behave with other people, how to live in a society. Regardless what disadvantages he has.
You as a parent might excuse him, but other people, will just avoid him. I assume you don't put up with bad behaviour of other adults for WHATEVER reason. Now in school they might not be completely able, but people will avoid him as an adult.
You didn't mention in school and other people outside family. If he CAN'T behave there, you need seek some extra support in teaching him behaviour. And your older child needs to be protected and absolutely can't share room with him.
If outside home his behaviour is OK, then that's even worse. He just figured out that home he gets away with anything.
Also, £1 thing you are doing home is wrong on so many levels. For both your boys.
I think it's ok, part of growing up and essential for siblings to fight and physically hurt each other. How is your younger one going to know it hurts unless he gets a slap across his face or a kick in his stomach. One of those and he'll stop provoking your older child. After such an incident I wouldn't make an issue out of it at all, just pointed out to my younger 'It hurts, doesn't it?'
In fact, your older has a DUTY to protect himself, as an adult he'll have duty to protect people he'll care about. He can as well practice, can't be a wimp whole his life.

Exactly!

Maybe the younger one being hit back with make him realise

It's sometimes the only thing that works. My cousin used to hit me a lot during primary school. My parents and hers kept trying talking to her and consequences, it didn't work. When I was about 10 I hit her back, she never hit me again after that.

That sounds an extremely difficult situation and, without wanting to be harsh, you aren't coping with DS2's behaviour or managing to control it.

DS1 needs some respite, probably too late for these holidays, but there are organisations like "care for the carers" or similar who may run or be able to point you in the direction of schemes/activities purely for children like DS1, living with a sibling who has additional needs and who is suffering as a result.

Care for the Carers, or similar may also be able to offer you or direct you to places where you can get support or guidance.

This behaviour is beyond normal parenting and you can't keep on trying to sort it out yourself.

This sort of thing needs to be worked on constantly not just in the moment.

Does he have an intellectual disability which means he can’t be taught? If not then:

What coping strategies are you teaching him when he is calm? Does he have a sensory box? Do both children get their ‘buckets’ filled daily? Are you dealing with his behaviour calmly or is he getting dopamine from your reaction? When he is calm do you talk about angry hands and why he hits? What sports does he do and how much exercise does he get? Does he have a low sugar low UPF diet? Do they each get 1:1 time with each parent?

whatever you do needs to be agreed and consistent between parents and needs to be done for months before you might cement it in his brain.

agree this is going to make your eldest eventually reject sibling and then you. Yes report to GP and maybe CAMHS?

also it’s hard not to but if you are shaming your youngest that won’t help.

Sitting in front can they take turns?

Putting in separate rooms you need to remove and then sit with the youngest, maybe with your back against the closed door so he leaves your eldest alone. (Do not shut him in and restrain the door though, stay with him) You grey rock the behaviour while preventing it as much as possible. And you have to physically remove / restrain while you still can. Once he is stronger if he hasn’t been taught differently you’ll be at risk.

Yes, they should hit back because it’s not fair on the child who is always getting hit. Maybe if the SEN child is hit a few times, then they will learn not to hit so much..?

We never find sitting in the room with the child who is dysregulated helps - neither does talking to them about why they were aggressive. They have no idea!

Sitting quietly with the child who was hurt helps though.

All the "give them something sensory to regulate with" is highly child dependent. For DS there are sensory triggers which have to be introduced gradually but giving him fidgets or sensory toys on a day to day basis has never made any difference to his overall level of regulation. However, noisy and crowded spaces are hard for him and needing to run around and get outside helps him. Exercise is a big ADHD help in regulation.

Yes. My sister used to continually hit me, I put up with it with it until I was 14 and she was 12, that’s when the tables turned. I drew blood from her that day but she never hit me again, my parents were furious but I’d had enough of being bitten, punched, scratched and nipped by her. When she was starting to get annoyed or upset I’d just used to need to look a certain way at her and she’d back off.

Just a word of warning, siblings will only put up with this for so long, my other sister and 2 brothers did the same eventually. We also all moved out as soon as we could and none of us were close to our parents after we did, they could have managed the hitting, biting, nipping, slapping situation but didn’t do it effectively enough. As I later said to my mother when she asked why I was distant “I wasn’t born to be a human punch bag”.

I don't agree with violence, but all this talk of harnesses and sitting the younger child in a room whilst they scream etc, and the mind boggling 'pay for punch' approach is making me wonder whether in the long run, being hit back a few times might be a kinder solution. Obviously it's horrible at the time, but if (and it's big if) it's more effective, then it might result in a more peaceful house.

I certainly had a bully at school who I only hit back once, and it was the last time he every bothered me. He's the only person I've ever hit.

In theory, no, it is never ok.

However, why are you allowing the younger siblings to hit the older one? What consequences are you dishing out? SEN does not mean they should bedwetting away with inflicting harm in other people unchecked.

If this is in response to my post

sitting with the dysregulated child in this instance sounds like the only option as otherwise he will keep leaving / trash the room

Talking about it is never done in the moment but when calm and in a time of connection; and never only once. repeated, calm, age appropriate questions (with the help of CAHMS and ELSA) helped my child to understand their triggers and start slowly to react better.

sensory regulation again takes time and yes it’s child dependent but if they find something they like when calm, it can be a reminder and trigger for calming down.

Ive been working on this since my child was 5 when she behaved like the OPs child, she is now 11 and never violent, much better at regulation and understanding her feelings before they take over.

it took a lot of effort and repetition of the things I’ve suggested to OP. Just as sitting in the room didn’t help your child, it was the only option for mine who would otherwise have been attacking her sibling, jealous that I was sat with him.

Any escalation such as hitting back would have resulted in further escalation from my SEN child. It HAD to be de-escalated and for a while, the only way to do that was essentially trapping her in a room with me, and grey rocking the situation. It was hell, but better than the alternative.

Hitting back doesn’t always work. ETA not just directed at you but all those who have suggested it.

Agree pay for punch is a bonkers approach.

I’m in the camp of two wrongs don’t make a right etc however no child should tolerate being hit and nothing happening to stop it.
When my nephew was being hit in school (reception age) we as a family reiterated my sisters view not to hit back, keep away from the other child, tell a teacher etc and it kept happening…
The teacher couldn’t have eyes on them all the time and it was happening almost daily. My BIL told my nephew to give the other child a thump back, hard and to stand up for himself in the end because he was coming home upset several times a week.
The next time my nephew got hit, he turned around and thumped the child back.
The other child started bawling apparently and after a teacher pulled them aside to discuss the incident at school pick up, they told her that they had had no choice but to advise their child to hit back.
He was never hit again though, I assume the child moved on to someone else or learnt a valuable lesson.
You need to step in everytime your younger child goes to hit, not transport them in the car if they are that dangerous to travel with and try and separate their bedrooms to give your older one some space, even if that means moving your younger one in with you if there is space for her bed.
If you tell them to leave the room
but they walk back in I would install a baby gate that isn’t particularly easy to open.

Younger child is ruling the roost here. You said you couldn’t tell them to leave the room because they were opposed to it and kept coming back in. So what happened? Did you just give up?

I do feel sorry for DC1. I’m not sure hitting back will work, especially if DC1 is naturally a gentle soul. It needs to not get to this level in the first place. DC1 needs to be kept safe.

Who’s in charge? If she refuses to leave then remove her from the room. Keep removing her until she calms down. Take away her privileges. Don’t let her have play dates, don’t do her favourite things, take away an electronics. You have to be more stubborn than she is. SEN or not they know consequences.

So, knowing that it’s not OK in this day and age for him to beat his younger child for misbehaviour, your DH is trying to delegate the job of “just beat it out of him” to your older child? That’s not how you put it, but in effect that’s what your DH is suggesting. You and your DH are at your wits end at how to control your younger child’s behaviour and are asking the older DC to try to do it for you.

That’s a very different situation to your thread title, which makes it sound like you are wondering whether to discipline an older DC who has lashed out at a sibling in self defence.

That "consequence" with giving the money to their sibling is one of the worst bits of parenting I've heard of. Absolutely absurd.

I teach mine to always hit back and I would reprimand them for repeatedly letting someone hit them and doing nothing back.

Sounds like the younger one deserves it. If the older one hits them back hard enough and often enough, it will probably solve the problem with out all the brain ache and consequences. The eldest needs to be taught that they are allowed to defend themselves against violence, which includes hitting back. Ideally more forcefully than the original attack.

Happened with my son. I was called in because my son after being scratched in the face with a pencil. That was right on the corner of his eye and looped down to his mouth had hit the child. I remember the teacher saying we know it was in retaliation but this kid is adhd and that my son out the 2 should know better (he was 6yo) so could I have a word & reinforce what they’ve told him. I looked at my son and said give me a high five to the teachers horror. I then preceded to tell them that whilst they show all this concern and sympathy for said child they’re teaching my child to accept abusive and violent behaviour and more to the point why did it happen (I’m not an unreasonable parent usually, I know teachers can’t always stop this from happening) I said unless you can keep my child from being attacked (not the first time) then he has every right to defend himself and he will not be punished. I then told my son that whilst at school there are rules and he’s been told he will miss his golden time on the Friday. I said life ain’t fair darling so you will have to miss it but I will be taking you to his favourite soft play where they had go karts and he can bring a mate and we’ll go to Frankie and bennys after. You know what happened after that. My son was never hit by that kid again despite that child hitting others daily

I agree with this - and the many similar replies. I'm immensely sympathetic to families with ND, ODD children and you need all the support you can get. But you're teaching the elder child to be a good victim. Can't you imagine what this may do to him as he grows up?

Kickboxing is very popular with children his age. Sign him up - or for an alternative like boxing, or even judo if preferred - and brief the tutor on the persecution he faces at home. Throwing a good punch is a very useful skill, easily taught by itself, but the physical confidence, movement skills and boundary comprehension gained from fighting lessons are invaluable.

”don’t throw the first punch, throw the last, hit back, hit back and hit harder”

Great quote from @Samewrinklesnewname.