To ask you if you’d date this man?

[BlueSandals]

To ask if you’d date this man if you found him attractive and in your age bracket and you are heterosexual female?

He is 53. Healthcare worker, interesting hobbies, seems very sensitive and caring. Intelligent. Interesting. Funny. Well travelled. Outgoing.

But…

He’s in the middle of a divorce. His ex has moved out of the family home to a smaller rented home and won’t see him face to face. They haven’t had contact in person for over a year. He lives in what was the family home. Has a teenage child that he doesn’t see. He says she has turned the child against him and she is an abusive narcissist. Nothing comes up on Claire’s law about him. The child apparently has behavioural issues due to his ex’s poor parenting in his view.

I know. Thanks though. He’s found someone, which I wasn’t surprised by. But was curious if women would see through it. I think those that know, know. Dark triad? Tick! But luckily mild to moderate. Damaging though, and I’ve got a lot of healing to do, but there are much worse out there. The impact on my physical health is the worst! Life long damage.

This honesty and self-awareness indicates to me that you a long way down the path of freedom. Amazing job. Credit to you. I hope your daughter is learning self-respect and how to assert her boundaries too.

He does this. He did this when talking about his ex to me. He’s exceptionally skilled at knowing how to look like a very well adjusted man who understands women and is an ally, he’s excellent at spinning a story that makes him the hero/victim but doesn’t lay it on thick - just enough and with empathy for his ex. He’s amazing at feigning empathy - tears up even.

It’s part of why it took me so long to realise that despite my flaws and mistakes, I wasn’t the whole problem and he was abusive.

How he was when rageful and verbally abusive towards me and DC only one person ever saw - and it was still only a micro dose. It has made me completely doubt my instincts about people and I don’t think I’ll trust myself to get into another relationship again to be honest.

one phrase in an email to me says it all though ‘I can’t believe you did that even though you knew I’d be angry’ - he used his anger to keep me under control and he knew it.

Proof?

No. He’s in a very messy situation.
I do know a separating couple who are in a similar situation, he physically threw her out of the family home with the teens. Did she leave or get shoved out? Does he own the home solely? It’s unusual for him to be cut off from his DC while in the family home.

Unless you want to be in the middle of a soap opera never start dating someone who hasn't been divorced for at least 2 years.
Those guys aren't stable and usually have a lot of baggage.

I speak from experience.

There’s a lid for every pot. If he is even half good looking he won’t be on the market for long, one woman’s trash is another woman’s treasure.
I have seen men who went through a bad separation move on and be totally different with his new partner, some people bring out the worst in each other.
As an example, my ex and I had a very fired up relationship, lots of argument’s, silence then making up, awful. I’m with DH 20 years and we’ve never had a blow out or massive row. 🤷‍♀️ DH is a very chilled person. I vowed never to date a sulky person ever again, it brings out the worst in me.

Maybe , if everything else was right. He could be right about his ex wife does happen.

OP, honestly why aren't you glad that that he's somebody else's problem if he's as bad as all that?
You can't be that concerned about another adult woman's wellbeing who's a complete stranger who's dating him of her own free will surely?

Nobody is that much of a saint.

When I think about it now, the guy is was briefly dating whose ex was accusing him of bad things (I've explained in another post why I knew it was b.s.) if he really was that flipping bad would have breathed a heavy sigh of relief when she saw us together instead of making a (provably) untrue accusation that he hit her.

It's not that I don't think he's awful but I'm confused about why the heck you aren't relieved and jumping for joy that he is not your problem.

Honestly I think that you're still in love with him.

Just to make it clear: I do believe that he's an awful person OP but I also believe that you still have feelings for him.

one phrase in an email to me says it all though ‘I can’t believe you did that even though you knew I’d be angry’ - he used his anger to keep me under control and he knew it.

this gives me the shudders. But mostly because what i find so scary about statements like this (and I've seen so many in RL from exBIL and sadly, I've seen a few people like this in the workplace - they are often frighteningly successful) is that, in my experience, they don't think of it as the anger keeping you under control. It's much deeper than that - they genuinely, completely, wholeheartedly cannot understand why you would ever do something they don't like. Their belief in their right to have everything their way, to make the decisions or even simply that whatever they think is literally the ONLY way to be means that they don't think of their anger as a control tactic. This level of disordered thinking is what I find so scary becuase it's completely impossible to work around. An evil person knows they are doing something wrong but does it anyway. These people have a deep seated belief that YOU are the problem.

Oh believe me. I am hugely relieved and in no way wistful, jealous or sad. I am not overly concerned about the woman his with but I do feel sorry for her because he is unlikely to have changed deeply. He will adjust his behaviour though to keep her hooked is my prediction.

This thread was about me wondering how many women would spot the warning signs.

So true.

@QuintadosMalvados unless you've been on the receiving end of a person like this it's very difficult to understand the trauma it leaves behind. there's the intellectual knowledge that he's out of your life and you don't have to deal with it anymore, but there's also the emotional toll it takes which can be a lot harder to move on from. Intellectually you KNOW this person is a bad person, who treated you badly, but then you start to question it again when you see him with a new woman who, as far as you can telll, is a nice normal person. why would she be with him if he's that bad? Maybe I WAS the problem all along? What am I missing here?

Plus there's the fairness factor. We all know, intellectually, that things aren't always fair. But it can be really hard to move on from Why is she getting the good treatment? Why can't other people see what he's really like? Why are there still people who think I was the problem and believe his lies? etc etc etc.

No, I like to keep my life simple and drama free. If that means being on my own so be it.

OK.
I see what you mean.
I suppose I'm referring to men that are more visible and objectively abusive : physical, sexual abuse etc rather than the type who plays mind games.

Not that mind games aren't traumatic of course. I don't want to play the what is worse game.

Absolutely not.

Aside from the huge red flag 'ex is crazy' narrative, the even bigger flashing sirened red flag is his attributing his child's challenging behaviour to his ex's parenting

Was he not present? Was he not part of the parenting? Is he not responsible for at least half of this?

To me, this blaming is basically announcing that he didn't give a shit a bout the most important thing in his life - his child. Even if the DC behaviour it is all the ex's fault (and let's be clear, it's not!), he stood by knowing it wasn't great and did nothing about it.

And a smaller but still shining flag for me would be - why is his child and their mother living in rented accomodation and not the family home? What didn't he move out?

Yeah OK.
I'll admit that I was thinking along the lines where a man is more objectively abusive (physical violence) than the mind games sort.

The sort of abuse that everybody- I hope-could immediately see as the abuser's fault.

I still maintain that if he's handsome and charming enough a lot of women will find ways of dealing with the cognitive dissonance of: 'if he's so great why isn't his daughter seeing him?' though.

Perhaps you need to accept that.

It's not fair but there's no point railing against it.

If he fooled you, he'll fool somebody else.

I would still take a lot of posts here with a pinch of salt. It's amazing how many 'I'm clever enough to see the signs' attitudes fall away in the face of a charming handsome man.

I would still take a lot of posts here with a pinch of salt. It's amazing how many 'I'm clever enough to see the signs' attitudes fall away in the face of a charming handsome man.
I sort of agree with you.

I actually think that forums like MN are having an impact on how much these men get away wtih. Still small because no matter how large MN is, it certainly doesn't represent the entire population. the women on here who are saying they'd see the red flags are telling the truth. Some of them might not have seen the red flags until they experienced it themselves and/or came on MN. In the real world however, yes, there are a lot of women who would NOT see the red flags and would believe all the lies. Sometimes, we see those women on here - they'll come on to rant about their boyfriend's ex and his behaviour but often, with just a few well chosen questions, it becomes clear that she's being hoodwinked by this man.

As a slight side note, I read some research a few years ago that said that certainly, for vulnerable/covert narcissists, it's very common for them to land up alone at the end of their lives. Because their victim schtick becomes harder and harder to believe and so it becomes harder and harder for them to find new people (women) who will take them in and they lose the friends/family they already had. Obviously, not true of all controlling/manipulative personality types, but definitely true of this one. see also narcissistic women who land up with limited or no relationship with their children/grandchildren and can have a tendency to drive other people away with their contant complaining.

You’ve obviously got doubts or you wouldn’t be on here asking if you should date him? Doesn’t that doubt tell you no, you shouldn’t?

The OP is his ex, wondering why someone would date him.

OK.
I'm saying that even if they know about red flags they'll proceed anyway.

No plan survives contact with the enemy.

They'll make excuses to deal with the cognitive dissonance.
Trying to be real here.

I agree that as looks and charm fade, the options for covert narcissists shrink considerably.

These things tend to be a main weapon in their arsenal.

Their pool shrinks with their looks.

They'll go back to exes they cruelly dumped and if those exes are not in a good place, or have an ego themselves who won't allow them back in, they'll fall victim again.

They also lack the outgoing nature of the 'classic' narcissist which means less people around them.

I know of one. Long-term unemployed guy, living in an old people's complex, only in mid-fifties, daughter doesn't speak to him, former cocklodger whose ex kicked him out about the same time most women become menopausal.

His looks are fading fast, the boyish charm he had at 30 now looks weird on a man in his fifties.
I imagine that in his twenties the arrogance was accepted as he had potential it honestly seems pathetic now that that potential has not been realised.

OP's ex sounds like a classic narcissist though. In my experience, they do tend to be successful for a lot longer, sadly.
There's a more positive, can do attitude to them.
They tend to work harder, too.

I think communal narcissist but obviously he’s not had an assessment. But his behaviour fits the bill and is fairly predictable based on that diagnosis.

I think he might manage to change enough to hold on to a relationship if they don’t have a child. And if they don’t share a house or finances I’d rate the chances highly if they are compatible in other ways. His mask is very well honed. It’s the stresses and strains of life that show up his true self. And someone very passive and easy going would suit him well.

I hope that it does work out really as it might mean he behaves better. But so far there is no evidence of that.

Also if he was to move in with you or you with him this can be taken into account where a financial settlement is concerned.

Be very wary.

No way, he won't have a pot to piss in when the divorce is over.