To think this stance is hypocritical?

[SorcererGaheris]

This is in relation to one particular individual, although I am also aware of it as a broader thing.

Not so long ago I had an interaction with a FB acquaintance in which he stated, among other things - "I intend to do harm to the occult community." As an occultist myself, I am part of this community, and naturally don't like the idea of people actively trying to harm it/us. So I questioned him about his attitude.

(NB - he is not religious, he is a completely secular philosophical materialist, who disdains everything mystical or spiritual. That in itself is not an issue - people are entitled to personal opinions and personal disdain - but when people actively say they want to cause harm to myself and my community, that is a different thing entirely.)

Where I think he is hypocritical is in the fact that he is a champion of diversity, equal rights and minority rights. He himself is an ethnic minority where he lives and speaks out about prejudice and hatred towards racial minorities, LGBT, etc.

If someone is genuinely committed to diversity, then surely that diversity should encompass everyone? Every group/community?

A world without occultists is a LESS diverse world. Advocating for the (at best) marginalisation (or at worst, elimination) of occultists is in direct conflict with the values that he appears to hold.

I don't see how someone who champions diversity can desire to do harm to the occult community, and promote its marginalisation, without being hypocritical.

By his logic tho he thinks occultists ARE harmful, so it would be comparative

So you ready everyone with disrespect until they prove worthy of your respect?

Er, no. But I can have neither respect nor any particular disrespect for someone, if I don't know them or consider them at all. Maybe I'm just quibbling semantics, I don't know. But I was talking about the principles the OP raised - I don't believe anyone is entitled to respect from anyone else, at a base level. I guess in the same way someone upthread said that we're not entitled to never feel offended!

@takealettermsjones

I think a certain (higher amount) of respect needs to be earned, but I feel that everyone is entitled to a bare minimum, basic level of respect. By that I mean - being spoken to courteously and being treated kindly and humanely. I believe that people are obliged to speak to me politely, unless I have given them some reason not to. Basically, if I'm not rude to them first, people are wrong to be rude to me.

@takealettermsjones

If you don't think anyone is entitled to any level of respect at all, then would you agree that people are entitled to not be treated with disrespect? (Without doing something to deserve it.)

I would posit that occultists deserve to be treated and spoken to courteously. In my book, that is respecting someone.

Hmm... possibly, again depending on your definition of disrespect. I think what you are describing as respect I would probably call civility; I consider respect to be something else.

But, sorry, I think I'm derailing now 😂

@takealettermsjones

I don't mind, as it helps me understand exactly what you are saying.

I suppose my definition of disrespect would encompass being unjustly insulted, spoken to very rudely, just treated badly in general.

If you see it as civility rather than respect, then fair enough. I tend to see the two as conflated, but can see how someone might view them as separate things.

Civility should always be the default, IMO.

I don’t really know what an occultist is or does but the fact you are saying it’s ok to do permanent harm to someone is bad

Have you really got the time to worry about all this shit?

@Jane143

I never said it was okay to do permanent harm to someone.

I said that there are no fixed morals in occultism, so practitioners abide by their own morals. Some occultists cast spells that are intended to harm the target. I never said that was "okay", I'm just being honest about the fact that some people do it.

Many, if not most, occultists, do not practice harmful or baneful magic.

@Jane143

This is meant to be a discussion. Not necessarily an example of 'worrying', although I do have concerns about manifestations of prejudice against innocent occultists.

And yes, I do have the time for it.

He's not the Messiah.
He's a secular philosophical materialist!

Sounds cool 😀 that bloke sounds like a moron.

😂😂😂

@MyLimeGuide

Well, I think it's cool, obviously. And as stated, my problem is not with people disbelieving in it, thinking it's nonsense, not having a personal taste for it - my problem is when people direct hatred at occultists for choosing to be occultists.

I wouldn’t get so hey up about it. Just get on with your life.
I can’t stand Morrissey fans. My bad.

@Swiftie1878

Normally I do, but it can pay to be aware of currents of prejudice, especially when I see people calling for occultism (as well as paganism) to be made illegal. I am opposed to such human rights violations and feel even more strongly about it when/if it can affect me.

Surely if you just get on with it and do your stuff in private no one will know or care? Or are you putting it out there on a chat group or something? I don’t understand why you’re worried what a random man (that you’ve already blocked) thinks? I personally don’t believe in it anyway but if I get a curse on me now I’ll know who to blame! ( joking by the way before you take me seriously) all the best

@Jane143

It's not like I go around advertising it, but if I'm asked (or if the subject of religion/spirituality comes up in discussion) then I am usually open about what I am and what I do.

I believe that visibility of occultists, as well as pagan polytheists, can be helpful in combatting prejudice, as it potentially allows people to see that we are for the most part, regular folks like them, getting on with their lives. The downside is that being open and honest about who we are can get us bullied/verbally abused/discriminated against.

It's not so much about the single comment; it's general intolerant and draconian attitudes towards occultism that sometimes bother me. It's not uncommon to see calls for occultism to be made illegal. That would be a huge infringement on the human rights of me and my fellow occultists to be who we are.

I think you're severely overestimating how much anyone cares about your hobby.

@Mingou

Not with everyone. There are examples of people calling for the practice of occultism to be illegal. I don't know whether that is a common or mainstream position, but it definitely exists.

A professional astrologer I know of got received death threats on Twitter some years back.

I think calling OP’s beliefs a “hobby” is dismissive and disrespectful. I don’t share her beliefs, but I think that’s rude.

@maxslice

I appreciate the support, but I'm actually okay with them being called a hobby. I do find many of the associated practices enjoyable, and at the moment I don't earn money from occultism, so it's something I pursue in my free time (I do have a vague dream of perhaps being some kind of professional occultist in the future, but I'm not actively pursuing that right now.)

But your understanding is fully appreciated, thank you. 😊

How is that any different from occultists putting hexs on people? It's not is it?

In what way? It is a hobby. It's something she does in her spare time which unlike many hobbies produces nothing useful.