To think this stance is hypocritical?

[SorcererGaheris]

This is in relation to one particular individual, although I am also aware of it as a broader thing.

Not so long ago I had an interaction with a FB acquaintance in which he stated, among other things - "I intend to do harm to the occult community." As an occultist myself, I am part of this community, and naturally don't like the idea of people actively trying to harm it/us. So I questioned him about his attitude.

(NB - he is not religious, he is a completely secular philosophical materialist, who disdains everything mystical or spiritual. That in itself is not an issue - people are entitled to personal opinions and personal disdain - but when people actively say they want to cause harm to myself and my community, that is a different thing entirely.)

Where I think he is hypocritical is in the fact that he is a champion of diversity, equal rights and minority rights. He himself is an ethnic minority where he lives and speaks out about prejudice and hatred towards racial minorities, LGBT, etc.

If someone is genuinely committed to diversity, then surely that diversity should encompass everyone? Every group/community?

A world without occultists is a LESS diverse world. Advocating for the (at best) marginalisation (or at worst, elimination) of occultists is in direct conflict with the values that he appears to hold.

I don't see how someone who champions diversity can desire to do harm to the occult community, and promote its marginalisation, without being hypocritical.

I think people misunderstand "magic" because it's had such a Disneyfied approach for so long. Much of it isn't far from meditation or mindfulness and the mastery of one's own will. Even science could be considered magic adjacent - it starts with a thought or curiosity, tools and materials are gathered, exprriments (rituals?) performed to seek an outcome. Everyday stuff can be viewed similarly - steeping herbs or grinding beans and drinking the results to soothe or stimulate....

"Occult" simply means hidden, so we have the frisson of the subversive, completely leveraged by authorities who want conformity.

In current times, any declaration to do harm to an individual or group not harming or recruiting others, is disturbing. It's unecessary power play, and little to do with actual beliefs, and leads to mob mentality, which is when the wheels really come off the bus.

The people caught up in previous witch trials - mostly women considered problematic - but also a number of men - weren't likely practising actual magic - a bit of herbalism and midwifery was enough for genuine persecution. It was a reaction to political unrest needing scapegoats under theocratic regime.

I can empathise fully with the OP feelings especially around the hypocrisy of it all. And especially with the tensions growing all around at the moment.

Of all the groups to take umbrage with, the "occultists" or Pagans or Wiccans or whatever branch of esoterica one chooses are the least in your face or public about it, as a rule (well, apart from in my locale apparently, but that's a whole can of worms encompassing personal undercurrents that I'm just watching with popcorn).

It's really a sad indictment of the world we live in. I'll take ridicule, scoffing and dismissal. I don't take open threats of harm.

What about a Christian who believes that the occult comes from satan and those who practise it are doing the devil's work? Is that not a valid reason to not tolerate occultists?

No, it's quite simple to avoid occultists, if you've identified them as such or they've told you for the most part.

@MrTiddlesTheCat

Perhaps a valid reason insofar as their belief system, but I would still see them as bigoted.

I was really talking about non-religious people, who don't believe in any devils, therefore do not believe that occultism is "the devil's work." Such people don't believe magic is real of effective, so they don't believe that even spells to cause harm have an effect.

IMO, a secular person who champions inclusivity has no valid reason to be exclusionary or intolerant towards occultists.

@MistressoftheDarkSide

It's really a sad indictment of the world we live in. I'll take ridicule, scoffing and dismissal. I don't take open threats of harm.

Yep - thinking about and wanting to cause harm to us is unacceptable. Even if they're essentially empty words and they don't intend to act upon them, there is a whole lot of unpleasantness behind that desire.

I think you are taking to the literal extreme. People have opinions. Why would someone else’s opinion of you affect you? They aren’t doing anything - just thinking and having an opinion. You seem very sensitive to other people’s opinions. I personally don’t care.

Agree to disagree but you are choosing to hold some random person’s view as important, when it’s not. You’re giving them power.

My mum is a Wiccan, she doesn’t care what people think of her either.

This.

So you're labelling people with different religious beliefs bigots, showing intolerance of them while demanding tolerance for yourself. Does that not also make you a bit of a hypocrite?

Then we're all minorities in lots of ways. The majority of people aren't called Sheila, therefore Sheilas are a minority.

Perhaps your friend thinks occultism may encourage followers to not engage with the real world and cause harm in that way? I don't know if it's magic exactly but I do know someone who sincerely believes they have been cursed. Everything that goes wrong in their life is because of this and there is no way to undo it. Without this belief therapy would probably change the course of their life.

I love you for your UN alone.

But great comment also

@Livpool

Would you ask the same thing of a person of colour? I'm sure most people of colour are affected, on some level, by a racist's opinion of them.

@MrTiddlesTheCat

Not sure - maybe it does. But I'm not saying everyone of a Christian persuasion is bigoted, just those that say occultists are all evil.

Some Christians - quite a few - have nothing personal against occultists as people.

So in this example, I am not promoting intolerance against the entire group. I'm not sure if I would say I'm promoting intolerance of the individuals who I think are bigoted? I think they should be tolerated, as in, allowed to exist and give their views.

@SconehengeRevenge

In what way is it a great comment?

Like I explained, occultists are a minority, because the vast majority of society are not practicing occultists.

@Delphiniumandlupins

When it comes to varying parts of identities, yes, most if not all people could be minorities in some form.

A white gay man in the UK is still a minority (of the sexual kind) despite also being a majority (of the ethnic kind.) There are various kinds of minorities, and a person can belong to a majority whilst simultaneously belonging to a minority of another background.

I’m not sure when we decided as a society that we should be tolerant and respectful towards nonsense beliefs tbh, and I include pretty much all religious beliefs in that. Believing in nonsense doesn’t make you a minority in anything but the sense that you are among a small minority of people who believe in nonsense about being able to invoke Mercury and cast magical spells. Being committed to diversity doesn’t mean having to have respect for what somebody believes just because it’s their belief.

I think that if a person from an ethnic minority had the same experience as you (social media acquaintance wished them harm) then yes they might well be hurt or shocked or angry but I would hope that they would block the person.

Because who is to choose what is the nonsense and what is not?

Nobody is obliged to respect anyone's beliefs, but they are obliged not to threaten or cause harm to those whose beliefs they don't respect.

But I think the issue here is that the person has said he wants to harm the occult community.

• Disagreeing with beliefs but respecting them - fine
• Disagreeing with beliefs and not respecting them, but not wishing harm on believers - OK
• Wishing harm on others for their beliefs - not OK.

@ComtesseDeSpair

Occultism isn't a religion.

I didn't say that people have to be tolerant or respectful of our beliefs, but I do think they should be respectful of occultists as people.

A person who says that they believe in diversity but who then excludes people who practice the occult from that - I don't see how that isn't going against the very values they claim to hold. And further than that, they have also said that they think it is okay for occultists to be victims of bullying and discrimination.

Being okay with causing harm to a community is surely unacceptable.

@godmum56

I have indeed unfollowed him, so I no longer have any interaction with him.

I am no expert but I don't think believing that your friend emailed you because you did a spell to summon Mercury is really the same thing as acknowledging there are probably bacteria we haven't discovered yet.

But why? Just talking about the principle again, not you personally - why should anyone respect you as people? They should not harm you, I agree totally.

If the minority community is racists should they be exempt from prejudice and bullying? I think most of us, if we're honest, would want to be less inclusive of certain people/groups.

That’s very different. I am not going to join in with whatabouterry. We should just agree to disagree.