To think this stance is hypocritical?

[SorcererGaheris]

This is in relation to one particular individual, although I am also aware of it as a broader thing.

Not so long ago I had an interaction with a FB acquaintance in which he stated, among other things - "I intend to do harm to the occult community." As an occultist myself, I am part of this community, and naturally don't like the idea of people actively trying to harm it/us. So I questioned him about his attitude.

(NB - he is not religious, he is a completely secular philosophical materialist, who disdains everything mystical or spiritual. That in itself is not an issue - people are entitled to personal opinions and personal disdain - but when people actively say they want to cause harm to myself and my community, that is a different thing entirely.)

Where I think he is hypocritical is in the fact that he is a champion of diversity, equal rights and minority rights. He himself is an ethnic minority where he lives and speaks out about prejudice and hatred towards racial minorities, LGBT, etc.

If someone is genuinely committed to diversity, then surely that diversity should encompass everyone? Every group/community?

A world without occultists is a LESS diverse world. Advocating for the (at best) marginalisation (or at worst, elimination) of occultists is in direct conflict with the values that he appears to hold.

I don't see how someone who champions diversity can desire to do harm to the occult community, and promote its marginalisation, without being hypocritical.

I think psychics and whatnot who use grieving vulnerable people to make money are morally bankrupt.

Can't you just get a hold of a frog and hex him?

@takealettermsjones

Because all people are entitled to a fundamental basic level of respect, surely? (Perhaps the worst kinds of people in the world are an exception to that, but the majority of occultists are not the worst kind of people.)

I believe that people have the right to be treated with respect.

@Delphiniumandlupins

I don't think anyone deserves to be bullied, so yes I would say that yes, they should be exempt from that.

I don't think that racists should be exempt from prejudice - but I don't think that's a very good comparison. Racists, are, by definition, all bigoted people.

Occultists are not, by definition, collectively bigoted or spreading hatred.

So I don't see any fair reason for people to not be inclusive of occultists.

@Livpool

How is it different? Can you give me some idea of why you think that?

It all boils down to prejudice and bigotry, except one form is against somebody's race/ethnicity and the other is against somebody's worldview and how they live their life.

My point is, being a victim of prejudice and hatred is horrible for anyone. It should be totally understandable why occultists would be upset by it.

@HauntedBungalow

I don't need a frog for that, but if I had any evidence of him actually attempting to harm me personally, I'd be happy to hex him myself or get experienced contacts to do it.

Maybe being disrespected and marginalized himself, he feels a need to target some group to make himself feel better. He sounds petty and bitter and uninformed. You have my permission to turn him into a toad or a banana slug, something more fitting to his character.

It’s still a creepy and disturbing attitude. Who knows if he will act on it or not? OP has a right to find it unsettling.

@maxslice

That could be part of it, although I don't get the impression that he is the victim of much personal disrespect or marginalisation on the basis of his identity. (He may have experienced some prejudice in the past, I wouldn't know.)

I tend to think it's mostly his strident commitment to a materialist viewpoint, which can sometimes go hand in hand with significant hostility to anything to do with spiritualism/occultism.

@CurlewKate has a valid point and it is very relevant to this thread, making people believe in magic and spells is harmful to society and I am saying that as a spiritualist. I believe in spirits/ghosts and guidance of the cards, reiki etc.i do not believe in spells or magic.

Allowing people to believe their spells can create karma, generate wealth etc could be disastrous in terms of those who were maybe obsessive, thinking they were receiving signs to carry out karma themselves. Its a tricky argument if there is no set belief like only white/good magic exists.

The very fact CULT is part of your descriptive name would set alot of people on edge.

But you said If someone is genuinely committed to diversity, then surely that diversity should encompass everyone? Every group/community?

You didn't say "every group and community that I personally think are good"....

@CombatBarbie

We are not "making people believe" in magic and spells. We don't proselytise to non-occultists or try to make others believe as we do.

We don't go around seeking out people, but we have a public presence so that people who already believe can seek us out.

There is no "making someone believe" in any of this.

The very fact CULT is part of your descriptive name would set alot of people on edge.

'Cult' being part of 'occult'/'occultist' has nothing to do with the term cult and how it's largely understood/operates today.

The literal translation of "occult" is simply "hidden", and it comes from the Latin word "occultus". It has nothing to do with cults.

The word occult is actually also used in the field of medical science, often in reference to blood.

An occultist is simply a name for someone who practices some form of esotericism, and it doesn't just apply to magic, it also includes spiritualism and interacting with spirits.

So some people would consider you to be an occultist, even though you don't identify with the term.

@Mingou

Well, my initial wording perhaps wasn't the best.

What I more mean is - surely diversity should encompass every group/community that isn't collectively promoting bigotry and causing harm?"

So you're really worked up at the thought of one man wanting to cause harm to your group, but you've also admitted your group hexes people, puts spells on people and tells people they can contact the dead?

And your issue is hypocrisy? 😆

@Mingou

My group does not do those things as a collective.

Occultists are not a monolith. Many occultists do not direct harmful spells at anyone at all, even in circumstances where it could be said to be justified.

Quite a few occultists might direct benevolent spells at people (a spell to help them get more money/better job, etc.)

I've never denied that some occultists do cause harm with their spells, I have simply said that this is not something that all occultists do as an entire collective.

So wanting to cause harm to occultists as a whole is not justifiable.

And in the case of this particular gentleman, the nature of occultists' spells is a moot point, as he doesn't believe that magic is real - so he naturally doesn't think that spells have any effect at all. It doesn't make sense for a non-believer to object to malefic spells, as they do not believe the spells have any impact.

@Dastardly2026

You haven't heard the half of it... 😀

Did she say her group hexes people?

You're splitting hairs. You're talking about diversity and about groups that do not harm...no group is a monolith. No ethnicity or race or sex or group or any kind is all one thing, but you're judging them all as good or bad as collectives while wanting your own group to all be judged as individuals.

Members of your group seek to harm. Members of your group do harm. Members of your group are not good people.

And you are a hypocrite

Except this man said he would enact harm.

Yea, she did.

@Mingou

No ethnicity or race or sex or group or any kind is all one thing, but you're judging them all as good or bad as collectives while wanting your own group to all be judged as individuals.

I have not, in this thread, judged any other group as a collective. I have made no negative judgements on races or ethnicities or sexual minorities at all.

Seriously - I would ask that you quote where you believe I have made a sweeping, negative judgement against an entire group, because I do not see where I have done so. I have been defending my group as a collective, not attacking other groups as a whole.

I am not judging other groups as collectives at all. I believe that all members of any group should be judged as individuals, including occultists.

Members of your group seek to harm. Members of your group do harm. Members of your group are not good people.

Yes, there are members of my group that do those things, and I have consistently said that. What I have also said is that they are not representative of every single occultist, so prejudice against occultists as a whole is not acceptable.

@Mingou

Yes, there are occultists who hex people. I've been open about that.

My point is that they are not reflective of all occultists as a whole, therefore to judge all occultists as being bad is unjust.

Well, agree to disagree! In my book you earn respect.

I believe in freedom of religion so I fubdementally defend your right to practice whatever faith you choose. I am also a Christian and oppose the occult. However I would never seek to harm ‘the community’ of any faith. I would only seek to persuade or pray, never to harm.