To think this stance is hypocritical?

[SorcererGaheris]

This is in relation to one particular individual, although I am also aware of it as a broader thing.

Not so long ago I had an interaction with a FB acquaintance in which he stated, among other things - "I intend to do harm to the occult community." As an occultist myself, I am part of this community, and naturally don't like the idea of people actively trying to harm it/us. So I questioned him about his attitude.

(NB - he is not religious, he is a completely secular philosophical materialist, who disdains everything mystical or spiritual. That in itself is not an issue - people are entitled to personal opinions and personal disdain - but when people actively say they want to cause harm to myself and my community, that is a different thing entirely.)

Where I think he is hypocritical is in the fact that he is a champion of diversity, equal rights and minority rights. He himself is an ethnic minority where he lives and speaks out about prejudice and hatred towards racial minorities, LGBT, etc.

If someone is genuinely committed to diversity, then surely that diversity should encompass everyone? Every group/community?

A world without occultists is a LESS diverse world. Advocating for the (at best) marginalisation (or at worst, elimination) of occultists is in direct conflict with the values that he appears to hold.

I don't see how someone who champions diversity can desire to do harm to the occult community, and promote its marginalisation, without being hypocritical.

@CurlewKate

As far as I'm aware, science does not say that magic/occultism is not true.

Philosophical materialism is not the same thing as "science." Materialism is an opinion, not a finding of science.

Science may not currently provide support for occultism, but that's entirely different to saying that occultism isn't real/true.

More likely a coincidence.

@CurlewKate

I personally give weight to John Beckett's words on the matter, from his blog post 'Facts and Reason in Paganism'

Facts And Reason In Paganism – Avoiding Materialist Assumptions | John Beckett

"Materialist assumptions are assumptions, not facts.

Materialism is not consumerism. Materialism is the philosophical assumption that all that exists is matter and the products of its interactions. It reduces human experiences of love and beauty to the interactions of brain chemistry. It assumes that Gods and spirits not only do not exist, they cannot exist.

Some scientists believe that quantum physics disproves materialism. I’m not sure it does, and in any case I’m very uncomfortable invoking quantum physics to “prove” anything. As a field of science, it’s still in its infancy. But whether it does or it doesn’t, materialism remains an assumption of science (or rather, of many scientists), not a finding of science.

So when someone says “there’s no way magic could work” what they’re really saying is “there’s no way magic could work in a materialist universe.” Magic could work by the intercession of Gods and spirits, but materialism refuses to consider that possibility. It says there is no evidence, but it excludes non-material evidence. All the times magic does work are dismissed as coincidences and confirmation bias, because the evidence points toward conclusions that invalidate their materialist assumptions and they refuse to question them.

That isn’t science – it’s claiming science proves something when it doesn’t.
Materialism need not lead to nihilism. Naturalists, humanists, and other non-theists take the assumptions of materialism and say “yes, and life is still beautiful and meaningful.” That’s a valid spiritual path, and for some, the only spiritual path they can embrace with integrity. But like all religious and philosophical paths it’s based on foundational assumptions that are ultimately unprovable."

If you say so....

And how would he cause that harm?
I suspect you are being overly-dramatic about this. People talk shit all the time.

@Swiftie1878

No idea - but even if he weren't actually to act on it, it's still upsetting to have it said to me, just as it's upsetting for other minorities to have people saying horrible things about them.

Oh for gods sake, you're not a "minority", any more than a kid who believes in Father Christmas is.

@VimesandhisCardboardBoots

"Minority" is defined as "a small number or part" in the Cambridge dictionary.

So occultists absolutely are a minority. There are very, very few of us - the majority of people are not occultists.

I don't see how you can say we are not a minority, unless you think that more than half of the population practices occultism?

The world is full of prejudices. Just get used to it. As long as it’s not stopping you from exercising your freedom to choose, what does it matter?

No-one has the right to not be offended.
Toughen up and ignore him.

@Swiftie1878

I'm used to prejudice, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. Like I said, it's upsetting to have direct experience of being a victim of prejudice - so in the sense of emotional harm, that matters.

if only there were a button on FB that meant you no longer had to interact with…oh wait 🤦‍♀️

No, it really doesn’t. Someone doesn’t like you. Boo hoo.
Seriously, this is a load of nonsense about nothing. Someone talks shit, and someone else is offended. So what?
Do some magic, cheer yourself up and move on.

@Swiftie1878

I never said they did.

But I can certainly contest it and call it out.

Just as it is understandable when ethnic minorities speak out about horrible things some people say about them, it is equally acceptable for occultist to contest and speak out about our own experiences.

@Boreded

I no longer interact with this individual.

The point of the thread is to question his exclusion and prejudice towards me and my community, when in other cases, he supports the notion of diversity.

"Idiots who believe in Gods" unfortunately isn't a minority at all. Just because your sky-wizards aren't one of the popular sky-wizards, doesn't make you special

Exactly! People are going to disagree with you OP, and may think people who think like you are weird or stupid. That ain’t prejudice. It’s an opinion. I am sure some think things I like or follow are stupid or weird. That is their opinion and I couldn’t give a fuck. You should try the same.

@VimesandhisCardboardBoots

First of all, not all occultists believe in deities. Most do, but some don't. There are atheistic approaches to witchcraft.

Being a theist is a separate identity in its own right. As theists occultists (those who believe in gods) are not minorities. But as occultists (a separate identity) we are a minority. Because the vast majority of theists are not occultists.

@Livpool

I would say that it is prejudice if those negative thoughts are incorrect or unfair. Part of prejudice is pre-judging people (before one knows them) based on stereotypes.

So if someone judges me as stupid (without getting to know me) that would be an example of prejudice.

No-one is though. They’re judging the thing you’re into. Occultism being stupid is an opinion that anyone is free to hold.

@Swiftie1878

If people think I am stupid myself, they are judging me.

If they think occultism is stupid - no, not prejudice.

If they think or say that I as a person am stupid - yes, they are pre-judging me.

block the person problem solved

There are people who believe that transwomen are women which is an untruth that has definitely been bad for individuals and society but in this case I don't think the OP is pushing her beliefs onto all and sundry to their detriment.

All Abrahamic religions proselytise - their beliefs are protected in the Equality Act 2010 and so is the OP's.

I think people who don’t believe in the occult are the crazy ones. Believing in the occult just means you believe there are things affecting the universe that we can’t prove or explain yet. Of course these things exist. These things have always existed. It wasn’t so long ago that we couldn’t prove there were other planets, or even other countries, or things like bacteria and gravitons. But it didn’t stop them existing. The idea that for some reason in 2026 we have already discovered everything that exists is ludicrous.

And your acquaintance is probably just brainwashed about stories about wicked witches. In reality many witches believe in the rule of three. We aren’t just slinging hexes around for fun. We are careful about the energy we put into the world.

oh and for the previous poster - transwomen are women.

@4Lightz

And your acquaintance is probably just brainwashed about stories about wicked witches.

That's not it. The person in question does not believe magic is real, so doesn't think that harmful spells would have any affect.

They don't think that the spells themselves are harmful.