To think this stance is hypocritical?

[SorcererGaheris]

This is in relation to one particular individual, although I am also aware of it as a broader thing.

Not so long ago I had an interaction with a FB acquaintance in which he stated, among other things - "I intend to do harm to the occult community." As an occultist myself, I am part of this community, and naturally don't like the idea of people actively trying to harm it/us. So I questioned him about his attitude.

(NB - he is not religious, he is a completely secular philosophical materialist, who disdains everything mystical or spiritual. That in itself is not an issue - people are entitled to personal opinions and personal disdain - but when people actively say they want to cause harm to myself and my community, that is a different thing entirely.)

Where I think he is hypocritical is in the fact that he is a champion of diversity, equal rights and minority rights. He himself is an ethnic minority where he lives and speaks out about prejudice and hatred towards racial minorities, LGBT, etc.

If someone is genuinely committed to diversity, then surely that diversity should encompass everyone? Every group/community?

A world without occultists is a LESS diverse world. Advocating for the (at best) marginalisation (or at worst, elimination) of occultists is in direct conflict with the values that he appears to hold.

I don't see how someone who champions diversity can desire to do harm to the occult community, and promote its marginalisation, without being hypocritical.

Following with interest as a low level occultist having personal issues with other "occultists" in my orbit, and who are currently courting publicity due to alleged persecution by Christians, which basically amounts to them having different beliefs and spatting on social media.... it's an Ourobouros situation to be sure....

@VimesandhisCardboardBoots

I wouldn't consider such a spell to be 'mind control'. The friend was already willing and happy to be in contact with me; I see it as a more of a prompt to get them to contact me sooner than they might have.

I don't necessarily see that as harmful, but perhaps you differ on that.

In any case, I have never said that there are no aspects of occultism that are harmful (IF someone takes magic seriously, which you clearly don't - so you obviously don't see any spells as harmful.) I also haven't said that there are no occultists who cause harm. Some individual occultists certainly do, the same as any other group of people do.

What I have said is that occultists (like any diverse group) are not a monolith. Some occultists will only perform spells on themselves, or only practice what would be considered non-intrusive, benevolent magic on other people (spells, for healing, for instance, or spells intended to help them out.)

Individual occultists may well cause harm, but occultists as an entire group do not.

And when it comes to the specific harms of bigotry and taking away other people's rights - the majority, and I would argue vast majority, of occultists, do not do that. Like I've said, you never see occultists trying to ban abortion, do you?

A text message might have sufficed to prompt your friend without getting Mercury out of bed, but you do you 😂

I'm wondering how you feel occultists are being marginalised though?

Ah thanks again for explaining some more.
I guess it's your spiritual way of making sense of the world and the idea you can control things in some way must be quite compelling.

@takealettermsjones

I don't have their number. It's a friend from an internet message board I had very recently at that time got back in touch with and we only communicate by email (I did email them my own mobile number, but have left it up to them whether or not they want to reciprocate.)

I could have emailed them again to try to prompt a response, but I was worried about coming across to them as needy and obsessive, which is why I thought that assistance from Mercury would help. (I didn't get him out of bed, either.)

I'm wondering how you feel occultists are being marginalised though

I don't think that occultists are being marginalised as a general matter of course, but there are people who advocate for that to happen (i.e. they call for it to be banned.) And the individual I am speaking of literally said to me "I intend to do harm to the occult community". So taking him at his word, I would say it is very likely that he would call for the marginalisation of occultists, and he certainly wishes to cause harm to us.

You practice magic?

@Blimms

Yes, sometimes.

Believing in things that aren’t true and encouraging others to believe in things that aren’t true is objectively bad for individuals and society.

However saying you “intend to do harm to others” is unacceptable.

There is a pattern in those who are vocal about diversity -- they seem to want everyone to look different and have different identities, but think the same. Exactly the same. It misses the point of diversity having advantages, but there we are.

@CurlewKate

Well, that's not really the main point of this thread, which is to put the case that wanting to cause harm to occultists comes across as hypocritical in light of their inclusiveness of others.

But as occultists, we naturally don't agree that the things we believe in are not true.

We are also not encouraging others to believe as we do. Occultists don't go out proselytising and trying to persuade others to think the same. If someone is interested and wants to take part, we'll happily accept them, but we don't go out trying to convert non-occultists.

We won't necessarily hide who we are (no one should be expected to do that) but we don't actively encourage non-occultists to share our beliefs.

So I don't think that occultists can be reasonably said to be bad for "society". We are such a tiny minority, and we don't attempt to influence how others think - we really don't have the numbers or influence in order to impact society in any meaningful way.

That’s in the realm of science fiction then. I am a tolerate person, but only of those things that are grounded in some kind of reality.

Is this a recruitment ad? You have said the word 'occultist' eighty-odd times ITT and six times in one post, it doesn't read right.

@Blimms

Well, you don't need to approve of what I do, but if you take a negative attitude to all occultists as people - simply because we think and act differently to you - then I would say that falls into the realm of prejudice.

@Locutus2000

No, I'm not attempting to recruit people to occultism. It is simply a descriptor of myself and fellow members of my community and thus an appropriate word to use when referring to ourselves. A thread about LGBT people would naturally include the term 'LGBT' a lot.

Some people have said that they don't know much about occultists or expressed curiosity about us, so I've used it more in posts explaining who we are and what we encompass.

Why on earth are you giving any energy to what some random guy on Facebook said. He sounds like a garden variety idiot with too much time on his hands mouthing off on social media.

@CypressGrove

Because people who try to harm us are a threat, or at least a potential threat.

I mean, I think everyone who voted for Trump is a bloody idiot, is that prejudice?

Same with people who enjoy watching cricket. (Absolute weirdos)

Same with people who believe in magic, or religion, or a cult, or most conspiracy theories. Anyone who chooses to ignore reality basically.

I don't wish them ill or harm. I'm not averse to a little light bullying though (especially those cricket freaks)

It seems like occultism is directly at odds with science, which I find problematic. I think exactly the same about religion. I wouldn't necessarily describe myself as tolerant of all diversity though - I don't ever voice my opinion on religion because it isn't kind to, but I have thought quite hard about it and don't support something I think is inherently problematic.

Yes, and they very often seem to have their own little unexamined petty bigotries and hypocrisies bubbling under the surface, all while projecting an image that they are Good (better) People who are Correct In All Things. Theres often a big ego there as well. I give them the same side eye as ardent Faragists.

I mean, I think everyone who voted for Trump is a bloody idiot, is that prejudice?

I loathe Trump, but having a negative view of every single individual who voted for him (without knowing them personally) would probably count as prejudice, as the term is generally defined. It could be seen (depending on one's view) as a more understandable or even justified (to a degree) prejudice, but it would probably count as prejudice.

I personally don't think that having a negative view of all occultists simply because we are occultists is a justified prejudice. We think and behave differently to you; that doesn't make us uniformly bad people. I presume that you have not spent a high amount of time amongst occultists, but I like to think that if you ever got to know any significantly well, you'd perhaps rather like them?

I don't think it's accurate to say that occultists are "ignoring reality", per se. We have experiences, experiences that lead us to believe that such things are real. We are not ignoring other aspects of the real world, we're just adding to it, if anything. I think that occultists deserve to be treated with respect, just as anyone does.

I don't wish them ill or harm. I'm not averse to a little light bullying though

The individual I am speaking of certainly does wish us harm.

And if you actively engage in bullying people, that is causing harm. It's disappointing that you think bullying is ever acceptable - it's cruel behaviour and it hurts people who don't deserve it.

No, I fall into the category of someone who believes in science.

You can call me ‘prejudiced’ if you like in an attempt to shut me down . I have little respect for anyone who is anti science such as those who believe the earth is flat. I put the idea that a person can perform magic into the same category.

Who says its not true?

@Blimms

I am not attempting to shut you down. You are free to say what you like. I am simply saying that I view it as prejudice.

Occultists are not anti-science at all; the majority uphold science. Not sure why you are conflating 'anti-science' with occultism, it doesn't reflect the mainstream of occultists at all.

I am certainly not anti-science in any way. I accept current scientific knowledge as accurate (evolution, for example.)

I simply believe in additional things.

Common sense. Evidence. Science.