To ask why there are no riots?

[Firetreev]

Where are the rioters today? If the roles were reversed and a man of colour was going out and terrorising white people it would be the number one story on the BBC and Herr Farage would be calling for action on the streets. Right now it's the sixth story on the BBC.

Similarly, with the atrocious and heartbreaking case of the baby who was abused and murdered. If the perpetrators hadn't been white there would have been bedlam on the streets by 'degenerate thugs concerned citizens'. The issue is clearly men, but rabid racists, the media and the malign agitators who whip them up into a frenzy never seem to be outraged when it's one of their own.

BBC News - Man charged after suspected anti-Muslim attacks in Edinburgh
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2xg6lwz5jo

I have not but I will have a look.

And can I just say, it doesn’t appear on the surface like you and I are on exactly the same page with all this but it’s bloody refreshing to have a rational conversation about it!

For me that’s not an explanation at all, it’s an excuse because it just doesn’t explain the action. Again taking the apparent claim from the report that police were informed of a crime, had evidence and arrested a perpetrator for crimes including sexual abuse and (potentially) the murder of a baby. Police saying they let the perpetrators go because they feared being called racist simply does not explain their action. Even if we consider it explains an aspect of it, it’s nowhere close to sufficient.

Did they let ethnic minority perpetrators of all crimes walk away during that time? Or just grooming suspects? If not, why were they unafraid of being called racist in those cases?

I think that the crimes that capture the public attention / have them clamouring for change tend to have a sliding doors element to them. So if the perpetrator was an immigrant / descendant of immigrant, then if they hadn’t been allowed to stay then that crime wouldn’t of happened so if you prevent one you stop the other.

Reality is child sex abuse has been endemic in the UK for a long time. Children’s homes, boarding schools, religious institutions, the BBC. When I was a kid in the 80s it was well known that there was sex abuse within the community. So and so had a funny uncle or someone’s Dad was “a bit off” and you weren’t allowed to go to their house . It wasn’t overtly discussed just swept under the rug.

There have always been men who’ve lured girls into awful situations and abused them after doping them up with drugs / alchohol and sold them to others. The police/ social services put this down to choices when you’re poor and come from somewhere a big rough. Then they are older and they criminalise the victim with charges of solicitation etc.

I think this is more shocking to people who haven’t been exposed to the dark underbelly of society. That this happens atall plus the sliding doors element of preventable means it gets more public attention.

The cps will tell you that the focus on rape cases that they believe will get a result so you a need “perfect victim” and a perpetrator whose filmed themselves/ serial offender / stranger. Women and girls who’ve been victims of prior child sex abuse will often fail the perfect victim test as it’d played out as prior high risk sexual behaviour whilst under influence of drugs and/ or alcohol.

If we actually locked up everyone who was guilty of a sex based offence . I think we’d be looking at a significant proportion of the male population tbh.

The grooming gangs targeted non white girls too who never came forward because of fear of shame.
Targeted the most vulnerable.
They should be held accountable.
Be given the severest punishment available.
This should be applied to all such criminals whether they are white, non white, British non British, LGBQT or straight.

I think you're thinking of this in too simplistic of terms, like they just fear that someone will say 'you're racist'.

But it's nowhere near as simple,these people lack integrity, they don't want to rock the boat, they follow the culture rather than their oath, they take the easy way out, they worry about the consequences for themselves rather than doing the right thing. If they know they're not being racist but fear that they will look racist or that someone will call them racist to shut them down they just do nothing.

To me it is an explanation because many people are like that. Many people are followers and sheep, many people lack integrity etc unfortunately that is just how many people are. It's not an exciting explanation, it's just how a lot of people are unfortunately.

As I said I don't think a lack of integrity excuses a person in any way even if the majority of other people also lacked integrity.

Another aspect of it is that they were apparently concerned about causing racial tension, with that added aspect they could tell themselves they were actually doing the right thing, even if they wanted to help these girls the consequences for society would be dire so they essentially let the girls become collateral damage.

I think it's different if it's an individual crime rather than a widespread organised crime gang and they would have felt far more confident about doing their jobs when it came to investigating other crimes, that was far less likely to cause unrest in the area and if you're apprehending one suspect as opposed to saying there's gangs and gangs of these men from a certain country then people are far less likely to be trying to shut it down by making out it's 'racism'.

Wish action would be taken over Preston baby death and the others

Social services not for for purpose. People should be sacked.
The whole thing restructured
Nothing will happen. Lessons will be learnt as usual but they won't. We should have a day to remember all the poor babies and children like Preston, Arthur, Starr, Alfie Steele, and many more who were abused and killed. Bring it to the fore every year. A memorial built also
I think mumsnet could do more too..

Not enough is being done.
We've had the she was only walking home thing re Sarah Everard what about something re Preston he was only a baby .

We should be angry about rape and sexual abuse of children - NSPCC estimate 500k children are victims every year. And we should be angry about how little is spent on prevention, as opposed to after the fact. Lucy Faithfull Foundation is the only organisation with the sole purpose of preventing sexual abuse. The Casey Review provided a lot to be angry about - not least the shitty mess of data - and Louise Casey herself expressed anger at the time and since. It’s disgraceful that IICSA took so long and has resulted in almost no changes. We should be angry about that too.

But that appropriate anger is easy for unscrupulous politicians to hijack and direct at a subset of perpetrators, and encourage us to support a subset of victims. It’s right to look at the different forms and characteristics of CSA, but the Lowe report arbitrarily distinguishes between victims of Pakistani grooming gangs. It leaves out victims who are not white, because (one can only conclude) the authors don’t care about the black, Asian and mixed race girls who were subjected to the same tactics. I’ve no doubt that perpetrators called white victims names and justified their actions because of the victims race. But that’s what perpetrators do, so they will have been equally vile to victims no matter their skin colour. And white perpetrators have and will use the same tactics, insulting and demeaning victims, because they see them as less than them, because of race sometimes yes, but also often simply because they enjoy dehumanising someone. The violence and humiliation is all part of that.

I think we should be angry at anyone who claims to be the future of Britain, who represents a constituency, but who clearly cares only about white children being harmed, and only then if they’re harmed by Pakistani men.

But it's nowhere near as simple,these people lack integrity, they don't want to rock the boat, they follow the culture rather than their oath, they take the easy way out, they worry about the consequences for themselves rather than doing the right thing. If they know they're not being racist but fear that they will look racist or that someone will call them racist to shut them down they just do nothing.

This I do agree with, absolutely. I just wouldn’t characterise that as fear of being racist, because if it wasn’t racism it would be something else. Some people are just weak and lack integrity and are not fit for public service.

On racial tension, I also agree that’s more complex and can imagine weak minded people telling themselves exactly that. For me, the bigger part of it is that a great number of the victims already were collateral
damage in the eyes of authorities. By the time they reported or were noticed, they were in care or known as mispers, using drugs and alcohol, and had often been persuaded that these were normal relationships. The age gaps weren’t always massive (mugshots were see know are often for offences 15 or more years ago). I remember when these stories first started to emerge, educated white men who I worked with saying ‘well, it’s always been the case, girls with older boyfriends’. If anything it was dismissed as an example of how protected teenagers have become. So I can imagine police and social workers holding the same shocking views.

Gah it’s just so difficult isn’t it? It feels like everyone has an agenda, we’re lost in a sea of inaccurate statistics, different motivations from different groups, and no access to any concrete data (from what I can see) for us to be able to correctly ascertain the size, scale and impact of these problems. I hate it.

For example - I want to vote in the next GE based on a rational choice. I want to look at all the manifestos. I want to try and figure out for myself what the UK’s biggest issues are and vote for a party that will address them. I don’t want to be mislead or lied to by either the right or the left. I don’t trust any news outlets these days. But I guess that’s a privileged problem to have.

Sorry for my ramblings. Things just feel so messy and hopeless sometimes. I ducked out of any political discussions last year after becoming so frustrated that nobody was listening to each other and nearly every conversation turns in to a bun fight, personal attacks aplenty. And it feels like nothing has changed.

thats the thing if papers did like a political dossier on each party etc then people in theory can have choices of who is doing what and why etc rather than a mix

The CPS don’t help themselves do they? Here they report that three men have been jailed for crimes committed in Rotherham.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/national-news/news/operation-stovewood-three-brothers-jailed-child-sexual-abuse

Except, the most egregious perpetrator is actually on the lam, believed to be in Pakistan

https://www.nationalcrimeagency.gov.uk/news/operation-stovewood-brothers-sentenced-to-40-years-in-prison-after-survivors-share-impact-of-sexual-abuse

I suppose many people would prefer for him to be deported so maybe this is a better outcome, he doesn’t cost us any money and he won’t be able to re-enter the country.

We are all just pawns @TheGreatDownandOut
All we can do is look out for our own because successive governments can't be relied on. For now, I look to Kemi Badenoch for my internal answers. She's the nearest political representation to most of my values and beliefs. I might have an opinion on Labour/BurnhamReform etc but I care mostly about living a peaceful life which is why I keep my wits about me. I'm glad you've been able to offload. Your frustration is clear and you're not alone x

I do agree, there’s a lot of messy problems and the solutions are pretty complex, expensive and technical. Sometimes it’s good enough to know there isn’t enough information, because it helps you spot the snake oil salesmen. Anyone promising easy solutions is probably lying - deliberately or not.

It’s also become very toxic. For that I blame Brexit! There’s an interesting series on BBC at the moment, only two episodes so far - assume there’s more coming. No commentary, just talking heads, but I found it really highlighted how stuck the remain camp were for campaign points, because they thought they were right and that everyone would just agree, and that the leave campaign was entirely about blaming others (immigrants, the EU, Liberals). I couldn’t remember a more facile debate on any issue before that. Worth watching if you are still interested in politics but not in being told what to think.

I’ve warmed to KB, though I don’t massively agree with her politics. I thought she was very good on BBC breakfast this morning, light and focused instead of that hectoring style she used to take.

Interesting that as concerns racist and sexual abuse of white children by Pakistani men, your assessment is that the racism is from people who want to discuss this abuse, not from the perpetrators.

For the avoidance of doubt, there is nothing wrong with and nothing racist about talking about the epidemic of sexual abuse of white children by grooming gangs.

And I’m going to take a guess you don’t minimise verbal racial abuse against Muslims, Jews or black people the way you have just minimised verbal racial abuse against white children.

I just wouldn’t characterise that as fear of being racist, because if it wasn’t racism it would be something else.

That doesn't make it any less the fear of being seen as racist though, if in those particular circumstances they did have fear of that.

These days we still see plenty of people who won't say certain things out of fear of being seen as racist, some people blatantly lie about certain things and twist narratives to do everything possible to try to be seen a different way instead.

Of course in many cases they have another agenda also and they're not just trying to look like they're just not a racist.

We know that many people have a fear of expressing concerns out of fear of being seen as racist, although of course these days the word has been thrown out so much that more people are now speaking more openly in response to that, if there's no way to have any conversation about immigration without someone calling you racist then people these days are willing to take the label and namecalling because it's the only way to have the discussion.

So I can fully accept the fear of been seen as racist as being a part of this

I can see how some police officers and social workers might have held some outdated and shocking views, but also given how widespread the issue was I don't think that was always the case either.

It certainly feels that way doesn’t it. I agree with wanting to live a peaceful life too! And I’m glad it’s not just me, it sometimes feels like everyone wants to just shout down the ‘other side’ and if you dare express an opinion either way, one side or the other will shoot you down. It’s lonely in the centre

Perhaps I need to go and listen to some of the stuff Kemi has said recently if she’s a bit more sensible than the rest.

If you’re happy to accept that then ok. I’m not and I wouldn’t accept it from a member of my team, or a friend who worked in that field. If someone is afraid of being called racist (and I accept that is a genuine fear) then they need to interrogate their motives and the evidence in front of them. Are their assumptions or actions racist, or could someone truthfully argue they are? If not, proceed. You’ll always get people who twist words to suit themselves, just make sure your own evidence and motives are genuine.

I see and hear people having conversations about immigration all the time without anyone being called racist. It’s a point that’s made on here all the time and yet not every discussion ends in accusation of racism, especially when everyone manages not to say racist things.

My experience is that people most afraid of being called racist are either 1. actually racist, or 2. quite unclear about what racism is and therefore nervous about making a mistake about something sensitive. There are solutions to both of those, but they require some work.

I certainly agree that Brexit has a lot to do with it. I’ve also often wondered if it’s largely down to the way we consume media now compared to when I was growing up. Back then, you had 5 TV channels and a handful of newspapers to learn about current events which meant that nearly everyone living within the UK would be largely consuming the same stuff. Sure there would be division and disagreements but they seemed to go from left of centre to right of centre - that is, they wouldn’t be fundamentally or morally opposed to one another but may disagree on the nuance. Now, people consume their ‘news’ from countless sources including anyone who has recording equipment and an opinion and access to social media. It’s no wonder everyone believes such fundamentally different ‘truths’. Everyone is vulnerable to being radicalised one way or another.

Or maybe I am looking back with rose tinted glasses to a time when it felt like nobody cared about politics other than actual politicians

I will check that out, sorry if I am being thick but what’s the program called?

Again I think you're assuming that I'm 'accepting' it as in deciding it was somewhat ok because there was a fear there, and I'm not at all.
I still think it's pathetic and wrong etc and they should be accountable, fear of being called racist or not.

I think fear of seen as racist is a worse/lower excuse or explanation than being ignorant for example.

I see and hear people having conversations about immigration all the time without anyone being called racist. It’s a point that’s made on here all the time and yet not every discussion ends in accusation of racism, especially when everyone manages not to say racist things.

Ok but I'm sure you also see many conversations where people are called racist when they're not saying anything racist or are you trying to say you don't?

Please don’t make baseless allegations. The thread has managed to stay on topic without that.

Speaking dispassionately and sticking to the facts is not minimising anything. This is part of the problem, not being emotional about horrible things must mean you don’t care. It’s divisive, and deliberately so.

Scores of those Pakistani men did not exclusively target white children, but accessible children of any ethnicity. We know that in some cases racist language was used towards white children, that’s not new information. Do you really think these rapists were polite and respectful to the non-white victims? How about the Muslim girls who were part of their own communities? All of those children experienced sexual abuse, violence and humiliation. Anyone claiming to care about CSA and grooming gangs must, by definition, recognise the experiences of all of those children. And if they don’t, they’re not worth listening to.

No, I don’t mean accept in that way. I understand your pov, I’m just saying I see it differently. I agree it’s weak/pathetic, I just don’t believe anyone genuinely feels like that unless they are quite dim or quite racist. I think you’re probably a more generous person than me!

If I’m honest I can’t think of any example of a conversation I’ve been part of where someone has been called racist for unfair reasons no. It may be that I avoid conversations with people who veer into that kind of debate. On here I probably have seen some borderline examples of it, but generally I see some quite racist points made, and the maker saying ‘and I don’t care if you call me racist’ which kind of nullifies any response.

They tend to be referred to Prevent on the rare occasion they appear, along with the yaxley lennon fans.

These days I wonder whether Farage and his ilk fulfill the criteria for Hate Preacher more than politician.

My post was entirely on topic.

Inter-racial crimes against white people are treated differently to inter-racial crimes against other groups of people. They are minimised and downplayed, we are told we must talk about all crimes not these specific ones. Why? We can, and do (hence the thread) talk specifically about crimes against other groups. This is partly why the grooming gangs have continued for so long. Surely you don’t believe that if these had been gangs of white men targeting predominantly black or Muslim girls, the response from the police, media & government would have been as ineffective and muted? Do you honestly think they would still happening? I certainly don’t.

I really don’t understand your point that the Pakistani men in the grooming gangs treated children of other ethnicities badly. That doesn’t make racial and sexual abuse of thousands of white children any less bad.

If Jewish people want to highlight racism and abuse against Jews, no-one says they need to talk about racism and abuse against other people.

Same with black people. And Muslims. They are allowed to highlight and campaign about racism and abuse against their group. Why is it only white people who are deemed racist and told they mustn’t specifically talk about crimes against white children? For goodness sake, there has been enough misery and enough lives ruined of these children due to society’s failure to address the issue that I think they deserve to be talked about without us always being told we need to talk about something else.

And it is possible to recognise that non-white children have suffered at the hands of these men whilst still wanting to focus on white children because 1) clearly something has gone very wrong in our society that this has been allowed to happen and 2) it has gone wrong precisely because they are (predominantly) white children and the perpetrators are brown/Muslim.

Would that make it alright for you if it did? 🤔