School lateness punishments, neurodiversity and the law

[VividDenimTiger]

Posting here for traffic really. DD 14 has had issues in secondary school- we suspect ADHD to be honest. I am unravelling my own mid life ADHD traits at the moment too.

For DD, one of the things that manifests in school is persistent lateness. She just can’t organise herself to get to lessons on time. The school has now brought in a punishment for lateness where anyone late more than 5 mins gets sent to a punishment room for the lesson. Needless to say DD is now missing loads of lessons because of her lateness.

I know that it’s annoying for teachers when kids are late for lessons but it feels like this policy unfairly targets kids, like my DD, who might or do have some issues with timekeeping because of other things going on.

Aibu? I am trying to unravel some of this for DD (and myself) but I am really angry about how punitive this policy is- it feels like it disadvantages kids who genuinely have issues with organising their time and themselves. The corridors are really busy in school and she gets upset and overwhelmed and that doesn’t help all of this.

I don’t really think the idea of using a friend to help is a good one. It’s not the responsibility of another child to manage this.

I was wondering how she has managed in other busy situations that require food timekeeping. Going on holiday, airports, public transport, theme parks, social events, disco parties etc? Is she able to manage in those situations or has she needed some adjustments. Are there any that could be applied in school. I was thinking that leaving the class last might help, corridors would be quieter so could then get to class on time.

Do you take similar issues to lifts and ramps for physical disabilities?
Why not just have stairs and screw disabled people

Diagnosis or not, she had a specific difficulty with which she needs support to set up strategies that mean she can manage this. Otherwise you’re saying she should just suck it up and keep getting punished if she’s unable to make the changes necessary. Everyone has things they struggle with and need to a little different to other people. But that doesn’t mean they should help I trying to work out the best way to do it.

you can’t run a buisness with every Tom dick and Harry saying they can’t be on time due to “maybe ADHD”.

Speak to the senco, get her assessed for ADHD, ask for support for her etc. I say this because since year 8 my daughter has completely unravelled to the point of complete school refusal. She's just been diagnosed asd. We've only just got to the point where the school are accepting she can't cope and doing everything to help her. Being punished for something you can't help helps nobody

Why don’t you have a look at how many very successful business people, athletes, musicians etc have ADHD? Often they were told at school that they’d amount to nothing.

Well I work in a major govt department with 15,000 employees and we're mostly on flexitime...seems to work out OK for us.

And as for the nhs-are doctors ever on time for appointments?!!!!

Depends on the business. Not all need cover for completely set hours. Plenty of employers are happy with at least some flexibility in terms of timings. I know where I work there are people who start any time between 7 and 10:30 - as long as they do their hours and work gets done to the required timescales nobody cares when they start or finish. I’ve worked other places with formal flexitime.

Why doesn’t she just walk between classes with her friends?

Not everyone has spare £1000s they can just pull out of their arse for private doctors. I'm sure if the OP did she would do it- it all sounds very upsetting and stressful.

It’s better to miss the last 5 mins of a lesson than be late for the next. That causes more loss of learning to the individual and distraction to others. I can’t believe that some think it’s unreasonable to request this !

Can you escalate to the head or governors and ask for a reason the loops can't be trialled?

Sounds like a really sensible, workable, easy thing to try that isn't going to impact on anyone else, and it demonstrates that she and you are trying to be solution focused.

If they're worried about them being used as jewellery you can get clear ones that are virtually invisible.

@VividDenimTiger I'm really sorry to hear of your daughter's difficulties with school and the lack of support she is recieving. I am sure I will be repeating alot of comments that have already been made but your daughter sounds so similar to mine. My daughter is about to turn 18 and is just finishing her a levels. From years 7 to 11 she managed to mask at school, found ways to cope, was quiet and hard working and school would not accept that she was struggling. Couldn't get a meeting with ALNCO and was repeatedly told that when questioned none of her teachers raised any issues. We had some issues outside of school that led me to seek a private diagnosis for her, she was very resistant and even the psychiatrist was not convinced she was ASD. On his suggestion she had some CBT sessions with a colleague of his which she found helpful. She started year 12 and the wheels totally came off, anxiety off the scale, very low mood, couldn't eat or sleep, totally overwhelmed. She was referred to CAMHS who didn't offer any real help and she tried medication but had a reaction and couldn't continue with sertraline. At this point I insisted on a meeting with school, I met with her Head of Year and the elusive ALNCO. They agreed to do some tests with her to check her executive function as I said she was struggling to organise herself and was frequently running out of time on tests. Lo and behold she has executive function delay. At this point the support became more forthcoming. Extra time for exams, a card to leave lessons if she felt overwhelmed, could leave lessons a bit early to avoid the crowded corridors and all her teachers were given a One Page Profile outlining her difficulties and the adjustments she was entitled to. It was a battle to get support but the school were on board when they finally recognised she did need help. This was without a formal diagnosis which did come months later after ADOS testing.
My daughter was always very quiet and well behaved and therefore flew under the radar. There are many charities that can give you advice and support on what the school is legally obliged to do to support your daughter. I would seek advice from them so you are clear on what you can push for then insist on a meeting with her Head of Year and SENCO. I made a timeline of all the previous contact id had with school and it turned out I had contacted them 50 times to raise concerns about my daughter, I took this to the meeting and it was quite powerful in demonstrating how long the issues had been going on for.
In the meantime I would look at alternative schools as it's sounds like even if you can force the school to make adjustments for your daughter it does not sound like a supportive environment for her to learn in.
I really wish you well as it is awful to see your child struggling and feel helpless at how to make things better for them.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/5484488-ehcp-support-thread-no-6?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=app_share

Hi OP, I haven't read the full thread, but if you haven't already requested an EHCNA for your daughter, please do so ASAP. You can do it yourself. You don't have to wait for the school. All the information you need and a template letter is on the IPSEA website.

Regarding the school, they're between a rock and a hard place (as are you). I'm a mum of an AuDHD year 8 girl with an EHCP and also a classroom teacher. With the attendance and achievement pressures on schools, 5-10 minutes late to every lesson is disruptive especially as a surprisingly large fraction of those doing that are up to no good in the toilets or the corridors. Your daughter is at risk from those kids as well as unaccounted for.

I do sympathise as the school.could be doing a LOT more to meet needs and a blanket no is never helpful.

I wonder if they might be more receptive to adjustments being put in place for September if the EHCNA request is in? That would be my focus as a parent in mid June. Is your DD on the waiting list for the other school?

In the real world she will have to get places on time. How hard can it be to get to a lesson on time, at a school, when presumably it's all on one site and her
peers are going to the same place?

The timeline @WildTwins suggests is a great idea and will help you with the EHCNA.

The big difference with the holiday/airport/theme park examples is that these tend to be short term uncomfortable whereas school is uncomfortable environment followed by more difficult environments and it's all day everyday

Ie.
Airport is busy but then you are on plane and you have a set seat for a time before you have to deal with busy airport again. You are traveling with family support, in clothing you have chosen that is comfortable. When you arrive at the destination you can relax and destress.

Theme park is busy and difficult but it is one day only and then you can decompress in your own comfortable environment

School.is very different
Uniform can cause sensory difficulties
The classroom can cause anxiety and pressure with learning/being asked questions, expectations
The corridors can be manic, the pressure of finding the right place, the difficulty of finding time to go to the toilet or dealing with public toilets. Peers behaviour, teasing messing about pushing and shoving in corridors
Loud noisy environment

The bus to and from school is unpredictable and noisy
Different types of smells
The worry of getting things wrong, the teacher shouting.

It's not a natural environment and it's relentless everyday.

For NT teens they often just get on with it but ND teens it can cause so many problems.

It's not that it's hard to get to the lesson.

It's likely she experiences signicant sensory stress from the crowding on the corridors.

I experience stress on my school's corridors and I'm a 53 year old neurotypical teacher! Kids shout and scream, push and shove and corridors are narrow and often windowless.

I work in an outstanding school with generally excellent behaviour management, but a lot of kids don't know how to behave in groups these days and buildings are cheap, in poor repair and badly designed and built.

I went to a small private school so never experienced the hell of school corridors. I wrote a post above about my daughter, I attended her school for meetings, trying to navigate corridors with hundreds of kids trying to get to lessons in different parts of a large school campus is not for the faint hearted. It is noisy, hot, overwhelming and claustrophobic. If this child has sensory issues then this simple task probably feels like hell on earth. My daughter was late to lessons as she may finish a lesson at the top of one block then have to get down 5 flights of stairs, walk through another 3 blocks then back up more stairs to her next lesson alongside all the other hundreds of kids trying to get to their lessons. It's not as simple as you are trying to portray for a child with sensory and processing difficulties.

It would be useful to go on the school or academy trust website and find the email for the SEND link governor.

If you'd bothered to read the OP's posts, let alone the thread, you'd:

a) understand the problem
b) understand why this is not necessarily an issue in "the real world"

and hopefully

c) refrained from clogging up the thread with your inane and unhelpful "thoughts".

Can you spot the big assumption here?!

From who's point of view is it working out OK?

I can't name names on here but we're probably the only CS department I can think of which is generally well regarded by the press and public alike and are considered by the govt and internationally to be efficient, well run and value for money.