School lateness punishments, neurodiversity and the law

[VividDenimTiger]

Posting here for traffic really. DD 14 has had issues in secondary school- we suspect ADHD to be honest. I am unravelling my own mid life ADHD traits at the moment too.

For DD, one of the things that manifests in school is persistent lateness. She just can’t organise herself to get to lessons on time. The school has now brought in a punishment for lateness where anyone late more than 5 mins gets sent to a punishment room for the lesson. Needless to say DD is now missing loads of lessons because of her lateness.

I know that it’s annoying for teachers when kids are late for lessons but it feels like this policy unfairly targets kids, like my DD, who might or do have some issues with timekeeping because of other things going on.

Aibu? I am trying to unravel some of this for DD (and myself) but I am really angry about how punitive this policy is- it feels like it disadvantages kids who genuinely have issues with organising their time and themselves. The corridors are really busy in school and she gets upset and overwhelmed and that doesn’t help all of this.

You just have your remember that anyone can post on here. People with zero knowledge of ND or the law, people with no empathy, experience or understanding of ND, goady people and trolls can all post.

In between the people who are clueless or goady, there are usually some kind people and helpful information. Ignore the rest as annoying as it is.

Loop earplugs really are raking it in with their shitty little ear plugs that do nothing. Talk about the emperor’s new clothes. Can’t get through a Mumsnet thread on autism or adhd (or the new mega variety audhd) without someone talking about bloody Loop earplugs

While you are waiting for a diagnosis OP would your GP write a letter of support saying she would benefit from leaving the class a little bit early? I know you suggested a minute but I would think 2-3 mins.

I did a lot of supply and it's not uncommon for children who use wheelchairs to leave a little early.

How would the OPs DD wearing ear plugs be a huge hindrance to anyone else ?

So, at my kids school (we are Scotland), you don't need a formal diagnosis. So we had measures in place before we even submitted for one - as they wanted to see if they helped first. If they measures that SEN kids need works then it is basically like a confirmation investigation is needed - if that makes sense? Eldest has ADD (with Autistic traits). Youngest we are awaiting a rediagnosis on as the SEN teacher (who is also parent to an autisic boy!) is like 100% he is autistic he is a carbon copy of my son - doc said naur...Sen teacher is like WTF!

They get out early for classes and lunch - even for the bus if that is an issue. They get to sit in the quieter areas of class. and Just in general all the teachers are - within reason - mindful of their teaching approach. I so think the quiet SEN kids are so much easier for them than the Hyper ones though. And that also played a part in my daughters resistance to going to school. She has about 3 disruptive kids in her classes in s1-2 that basically made her hate school so much that there were tears, stomach aches, headaches, purposefully hurting themselves to get collected (attendance was like 87%). We/school didn't start looking at her as SEN until mid S2 after she decked someone when she was confronted and couldn't flee (and other things)

Currently we are still often 3-5 mins late. BUT our school does reg, so they are never late for actual classes.

My Son also hides in a quiet zone if he is on time/early, and will be the last to go in. He has normal headphones (though noise cancelling ones). Eldest has in ear ones she wears in class with the keep aware on.

NONE of the measures needed have any impact on anyone else.

The school is locked/secure exit, so if they get out 5 mins early for a class, they cant leave the building as a whole.

Only place to skip class is library - and any non senior level kids will get asked why they are there in class time if they shouldn't be.

There are other smaller things that they implemented, and it actually HELPED my eldest with her executive functioning. Yes, morning still SUCK, but she has gone from a chaotic hamster to understanding her schedule in about 2-3 years.

I think the rule of missing class when your late it actually ridiculous, and could it possibly be against her rights to schooling?
As a punishment it teaches her nothing. It is NOT how the majority of the real world functions (yes, buses,trains,planes etc).
I would guess that the missing of so much work will be adding to stress for her, which will make her not want to go to school more, so there will be less and less desire to even bother trying to get there....and that will just keep repeating that cycle.

Such as what? Can you give an example of something that is completely unreasonable?

Before you go 'into battle' with the school, one important thing you should do is find out from your daughter exactly what she thinks will help her get to school/class on time. Frequently adjustments are put in place between parents and teachers that don't actually address the problem because the child has their own reasons for struggling with something that they haven't communicated to anyone.

I think this is quite a thoughtful post. To respond I'd say the first step (and this applies to the other "two tier" areas as well) is to recognise that where we are is not where we want to be.

At the moment all these types of discussion have become polarised with those saying the pendulum has swung too far being characterised as "far right" rather than just having a valid viewpoint.

There is so much entrenchment of view - especially in the public sector we all pay for - that simply achieving a general recognition that things are not working well would be a major leap forward.

So many people (especially in govt and the public sector) like to pretend we don't have serious problems across our public services. Of course we do.

If and when we get to this position then change can happen from the political centre not from the extremes. So the first step is recognising that what we are doing is not working.

I don't have time to write an essay but once this crucial position has been reached there is a valid debate to be had about how we change our approach to public services.

My 2p would be that every question in a school environment should be answered against a test of how it improves educational outcomes for the greatest number of kids. So in a mainstream school individual adjustments would be limited.

But I could be more radical. Why not have he govt give every child a voucher with which the parents could choose a privately run school? Different schools would spring up catering for different types of child.

Why does teaching provision need to be undertaken by the public sector at all? Judge by outcome.

School do not NEED to wait for a diagnosis, they are CHOOSING to wait for a diagnosis. Our local HS understands the wait for CAMHS, and treats young people “as if”, based on conversations with parents and young people. They offer flexible timetables, on site alternative provision, a seperate entrance for young people who may find the main entrance difficult etc etc

All schools can do this, it’s just some can’t be arsed.

I do also think that many schools are just not seeking mutually beneficial compromise, only seeing the problems it causes and responding with blanket policies. Fidget toys for example. The school doesn't like them because they can distract others, so they discourage their use. My 9yo dd's response was entirely rational, self aware and responsible: "I would fiddle with it quietly under the desk so as not to distract others - and I'd agree that if I started distracting others with it then I'd have to give it up". A perfectly reasonable, thoughtful response. If an autistic 9yo girl can think in this way, then why can't adults? I'm becoming much more vocal and unapologetic about reasonable adjustments where there is virtually no perceivable inconvenience to others.

The OPs daughter is missing lessons and heading towards school refusal because school aren’t putting adjustments in place.
What do you suggest in a case like this?
If a few adjustments are put in place then she will hopefully be able to succeed educationally.
If they aren’t,,she may not.
Which situation is most likely going to end up with her being NEET?

What percentage of those SEN kids who are NEET were actively and fully supported at school? How many had the right adjustments on place for them to succeed?

The current thread about the issue of teens not being able to pass maths / English GCSE’s despite multiple results yet being barred from taking Functional skills therefore not having access to vocational quals / apprenticeships is very interesting and one I think you should read.

Equality and equity are not the same.

And there's that amazing insight again - so good you said it twice! You are hitting genius level now.

Letting kids have meltdowns in class, wrecking other peoples work, throwing items, punching and kicking. There seems to be an attitude of ‘oh but they’re neurodiverse’, and ‘it’s fine cause we’re inclusive in this school’ rather than learn strategies to behave or you’re out. It’s not acceptable to act like this infront of other kids.

A very quick google search would tell you that AuDHD is not new or a "mega-variety" of anything but merely autism and ADHD combined which is more common that either of them in isolation, and can manifest differently depending on how they interact.

I'm a teacher and also have adhd. Here's a solution. She needs her bag to be fully packed for all lessons happening that day. Forget lockers and picking things up between lessons. You can help her with this at home the night before.
She needs to identify someone in each class who goes onto the next class and follow them.
If she needs a toilet break, she needs to do it during class time.
Your only other option is to loiter outside each class and walk her to her next one.

When you say she is hiding until its quiet, is she standing outside of the classroom where the teacher can see that she is there? If that is the case, then maybe she can wait until the last person is in and then go straight in?
Or is she elsewhere?
Can she maybe get some ear defenders so that she can stay focused on where she needs to be?

Speak with the sendco and ask if they can trial run giving her a 5 minute pass so she can leave lessons 5 mins early. Trial it for 2 weeks for example and if it works, it works. If it doesnt work then back to the drawing board.

OK let's start by pre-emptively addressing the usual ND thread tosspot bingo points:
I am diagnosed autistic and dyslexic - late in adulthood - shitty as hell self esteem, shredded mental health which has only improved post diagnosis.
One child diagnosed with DCD/ASD/inattentive ADHD - runs at a high level of anxiety to try to people please and do "right" in class - absolutely dream kid to teach apparently, high in the entire school positive behaviour points scheme every year - diagnosed with all bar the ADHD before she started secondary
One child diagnosed late with ASD in Y8 - but it's been screamingly obvious for years. Can be a bit of a chatty so and so in school and did take 150 tiny 3D printed whistles in which caused chaos once - but basically regarded in teacher terms as a good kid "needs sitting on to rein it in occasionally" (so I'm under no illusions she's an angel).

All very "female" presentations of the various conditions. I'm also trained in ADOS administration and coding, contribute to NHS diagnostic pathways.

We claim nothing in benefits (not even child benefit as we're above the income cutoff). I applied for DLA for the younger child when she was infant age - was declined because "she is a well behaved child", and didn't have the mental spoons to push it through appeals. I tend to be one of the leading representatives for ND staff in my work, and I'm also one of the most pragmatic people going for balancing inclusion with getting the actual job done. I'm very positive about my differently wired brain, but accept that I might be a square peg - but society needs a hell of a lot of round holes filled so how can we work that as well as we can.

DD1 started secondary about 2 years into the assessment waiting list - secondary's approach from the outset has been that the waiting lists are so terrible - we'll support her as if she is - so she had a key worker to support with the transition and home-school liaison, a bit of friendship group support and this was all gradually stepped down once she settled - apart from whistle-gate (thank god her tutor teaches 3D design so was actually rather impressed) - she's done brilliantly - probably slightly underachieves from her full potential because her social life matters to her more - but since my school years were spent being beaten up because I was "weird" - I'll take her doing OK and being happy.

DD2 is more anxious, but because of how well behaved she is (her parents evenings seriously get boring after the first 3 teachers say how hard she works and how well behaved she is bless her) - she can fly below the radar a bit. However school know her executive functioning is not the greatest, combined with her natural anxiety - and they focus on strategies to work around that rather than coming down on her like a tonne of bricks for things - and it's worked wonders - her organisation and dealing with overwhelm has developed, her confidence has grown and she's only lost half her belongings around school this year. It's little things - like she loses her PE kit or takes an age getting changed - so they let her (and a fair few other kids) stay in PE kit on the relevant days, she's got a locker allocated right near her form room so she's got less chance of losing everything on a random side-quest between lessons... nothing that takes out of teaching time, but things that just take a little humanity and will to understand. She's also absolutely flying in school - however - we picked the school carefully, it's out of catchment and a bit of a pain to get to on a morning - but the local school is an outstanding "squish every ounce of dissent or individuality out of them and only top grades are good enough" place - academically they'd have done probably slightly better there - but neither of them are a personality that would have thrived mentally and I would bet that I'd have ended up with at least one trying to school-avoid.

So yeah OP - the school's a shite fit.

There have been a few unreasonable suggestions on here. Leaving the lessons early is one of those.

Loop earplugs are raking it in with their shitty ear plug cases that fall open randomly and lose the bastard things (I'm bitter - can you tell).

It's hard to explain if you're not wired in a way that you struggle with sensory processing - the best way I can explain it is that amazing feeling of just unclenching when you take a slightly uncomfortable bra off? That's the kind of reduction in overload I feel when I put some form of earplug or noise cancelling headphones on. I don't tend to use Loops much because a) I've lost about 10 pairs cos of shitty case design and b) I have eczema in my ears so they're often sore and itchy - but I do increasingly rock noise cancelling over the earphones when I'm anywhere busy and it reduces my stress levels down a notch - which can be the difference between me being able to continue functioning and not.

What about this is an issue for others, do you think? If someone moving around in class time is a problem do you think that no kids should be able to go to the toilet during lessons? How calm / quiet do you think secondary school lessons are?

Why? OP is only asking for one minute early. Plenty of schools manage that as a reasonable adjustment.

Why does the child have to be deprived of the normal experience of education just because she's disabled? Plenty of schools manage well with neurodiverse children, after all.

You already thanked me for my wonderful insight and now you’ve said it twice! I’m truly grateful but it’s getting embarrassing now for you- your gratitude has been noted. No need to repeat yourself again! 😙

Because it's disruptive. Because they very often work up to the bell. Reading lessons in English would have to finish early, tidying away in practical lessons would be left for the others to do.

I have custom moulded ear plugs. Loop earplugs are shite and absolutely a case of the emperor’s new clothes.