School lateness punishments, neurodiversity and the law

[VividDenimTiger]

Posting here for traffic really. DD 14 has had issues in secondary school- we suspect ADHD to be honest. I am unravelling my own mid life ADHD traits at the moment too.

For DD, one of the things that manifests in school is persistent lateness. She just can’t organise herself to get to lessons on time. The school has now brought in a punishment for lateness where anyone late more than 5 mins gets sent to a punishment room for the lesson. Needless to say DD is now missing loads of lessons because of her lateness.

I know that it’s annoying for teachers when kids are late for lessons but it feels like this policy unfairly targets kids, like my DD, who might or do have some issues with timekeeping because of other things going on.

Aibu? I am trying to unravel some of this for DD (and myself) but I am really angry about how punitive this policy is- it feels like it disadvantages kids who genuinely have issues with organising their time and themselves. The corridors are really busy in school and she gets upset and overwhelmed and that doesn’t help all of this.

Leaving class a few minutes early is a well recognised and helpful adjustment for kids with physical, MH and NT diagnosis.
Would you feel the same if it was a child in a wheelchair or on crutches who needed to leave when corridors are quieter for safety purposes? Or is that unreasonable too?

She doesn’t have to be deprived of anything. She has 10 minutes to get to her next class. The corridors are not rammed for the entire 10 minutes.

Out of interest, why is it? When my son was first diagnosed with crohns he'd lost so much weight he had to tube feed almost constantly to get the 3000 calories of liquid nutrition he needed into him each day. He'd set up the pump at break or lunch times but it would finish mid way through the next lesson and he'd have to nip out to disconnect the pump and flush it. His school and teachers had no problem accommodating that which was surely more potentially disruptive than leaving a lesson a minute early. He was also allowed to be late for a lesson if it was at the opposite end of the school from the medical room where his supplies were kept. Those accommodations made the difference between him being able to attend school and not ie the difference between missing 1 month of school and 3 months.

It almost as though many people dont believe that disabilities you can't see are real.

I think YANBU sorry OP - I'm being assessed for AuDHD myself, have three other immediate family members with both. I'm also a teacher. 5 minutes grace period is actually quite a lot.

Edit: sorry, OP, clearly didn't read your post properly! Sent to a punishment room for the lesson?? That's awful! I mean my college used to lock the doors after 5 minutes and students on EMA would lose their funding for the week, but what if a student has had a pastoral or medical issue? I do still think 5 minutes is a good amount of time to get to class if she's getting prompted by a bell and other students moving but that policy is just mad. Surely just issue them a late mark! And students who want to avoid lessons will just drag their feet so they can go to the "punishment" room (IME these can be anything but! How awful

What's happening during your DD's school day? I'm assuming students walk themselves to lessons, as in some schools classes are escorted by the teacher (usually beginning of the day and after break and lunch). There should be a bell that lets students know it's time to move to their next lesson, and any teachers on duty in break/lunch areas will start shooing (for want of better word!) students to start moving to their next lessons. I've taught so many ND students and I don't think I've ever come across one where suspected ADHD as in not organising themselves was the reason for lateness to lessons during the school day. Far more likely to be anxiety, autism, truancy, anything leading them to feel overwhelmed and avoid busy corridors or not wanting to go to lessons, rather than not knowing it was time to go.

Does your DD spend break/lunch with friends or anywhere there are other students eg the library to get a visual reminder that it's time to leave? Is she taking a long time to pack up moving between lessons? Usually students can cross our secondary campus in five minutes and teachers will mark late only if someone's arriving well after everyone else.

For me personally I need reminders that I can see or hear and immediately act on, it's my perception of time passing that is rubbish, among other things.

is she at school on time? As that’s your responsibility

In the real world they need to learn to be on time.
It’s really unfair that everyone else’s learning is disrupted due to people coming in late, ND isn’t an excuse for lateness. ADHD family where we implemented ensuring they learnt that in order to succeed in life you need to be on time. They all work in jobs where if they were late they would no longer have a job.

Would you support a kid with a physical disability being punished for struggling to get between lessons promptly?

Schools have got to breaking point due to a steady real terms drop in funding and having to pick up the pieces when the seevices that used to support young people has been cut or removed all together.

The problem is being late to lessons as she’s overwhelmed by the busy corridors (amongst other things) and the school refusing support as she’s still awaiting diagnosis.
What do you expect the OP to do?

I would say it is more common than not to have multiple children either ADHD and ASD in a classroom.

I just asked DS who has ASD level 2 what happens in his school and he said he just goes with the other kids and the other ND kids do the same.

I’m not saying schools won’t make allowances but I’m not sure they do often. Try to open a communication with some teacher/SENCO and see what can happen.

I agree with others saying this sounds very sensory so definitely consider ASD.

Does she have any friends who would be moving to the same class that she could walk with? Even if not every time, this may reduce some absence.
I've suggested this a couple of times upthread but not sure OP read them/was interested? My GC buddied a friend who was temporarily in a wheelchair, negotiating corridors and lifts to get them to class within the 5 mins. If they were in a different class - the honour was passed on to another friend (at the end of the year, GC received a 'Good Friendship Award' and was pink with embarrassment). I don't know whether this could help or not.....

Another one that didn't bother to read the OP.

Actually OP, I think you’ve possibly done your DD a disservice by describing this as a timekeeping issue.

Yes, timekeeping is hard with ADHD but yes, you do have to learn how to be on time (even if it’s just skidding through the door on time by the skin of your teeth 😂).

However what you’re describing here is actually a sensory overwhelm issue, not organisation or timekeeping. The lateness is the net result, not the problem.

Your DD is actively hiding elsewhere to avoid the noise and crowds because she can’t manage. And then because of that, she’s late.

Talking about time management and neurodivergence on MN is like a red rag to a bull - I’m not reading the thread as I saw it was full of the usual dickish comments. I’m not wasting my energy. I read your comments OP.

Obviously this pattern at school isn’t sustainable, especially as your DD is starting to become a school refuser.

You either:

Home educate

Switch schools - are there any without a waiting list other than the other one you like? Parents may prioritise schools with good exam results but what you need is a school that’s good with SEN; they’re not always the popular ones

Write a letter of complaint to the governors based on the advice you’ve had here (I saw some helpful comments early on - I’m sure there are others mentioning need not diagnosis/SEN code)

You say the school isn’t amenable to options like letting her out a minute early, wearing loop earbuds etc, so I’m not sure what else you can do? The longer it carries on, the worse this is going to become. Sadly, from experience, schools are either good with accommodating SEN or else they never will be. And if they’re the latter, you really are better off cutting your losses and getting out of there asap - even if you home educate for a while.

It’s sounds like anxiety, but not necessarily related to ADHD. Getting overwhelmed in loud, large, busy spaces is also a trait of agoraphobia (as an example). It sounds like she is getting stressed out and not wanting to walk amongst the crowd.

One thing you could try, is her putting on ear defenders, or earphones with music for the 5min transition between classes. I know it sounds odd, but even something like slipping on a pair of sunglasses could do the trick. If it’s being caused by being overwhelmed with the sensory load, toning down what she can hear and see a notch may just about work.

Another option, if the school will help with this, is if they have any ‘good’ kids/prefects, who would be willing to act as ‘buddy’ to walk with her on class transitions. This would make it a proper task and not reliant on a the kindness of a friend to support…plus the prefect may be able to give a progress report back to the head of year to say whether that type of support is working or not. If having another child being positive/supportive and wanting to walk with her to help her doesn’t work…and that child reports that she is expressing anxiety/panic (rather than obstinacy) that may help build the case with the school that this is not a discipline issue.

i think the problem for the school currently, is that they only have your word for it that this is a discipline issue…they need to see it with their own eyes or have another student verify it. Unfortunately…schools are now in a position generally that whenever a child misbehaves…a parent is likely to make claims of special needs and demand their child is treated differently. Of course, some will need that, but there are a lot that just want to play the system.

I would ask to have a meeting with the sendco, head of year and schools educational psychologist and use the phrase reasonable adjustments for children on the adhd pathway.
however I don’t understand how you can be late in secondary school surely you walk from one class to the next? She can’t buddy up with friends or try and get to every class after a break five mins early?

ya got it. I thought it’s about being late first thing in the morning 🤷‍♀️

Tricky what to do between lessons.

Practice focussing on the one task for 5 minutes. Visualising at home how she walks from classroom a to classroom b. Thinking about what could disrupt. Make a plan for each disruption. But getting back on track, not paying attention to anything that distracts. That kind of mental practice maybe? Checking at the end of the day and making a big deal out of any success and a new plan for any setbacks

@VividDenimTiger how did she make it in school before?

Leaving the lesson early is really no big deal at all. It’s ridiculous to suggest it is. As I said before I did this in the 90s when I was at secondary. I was told to choose a seat near the door, all the teachers knew and I left 5 mins early to get to my next lesson while the corridors were quiet. It was a simple and effective strategy.

It's striking how on the OP it's stated no diagnosis, school think it's something the teenager can control and so therefore aren't supporting a need for reasonable adjustments and that there's no evidence of disability except for mum asked the GP to refer yet the overwhelming message is she is entitled to a million reasonable adjustments and definitely has additional needs on mum's say so.

Sometimes kids have never had any issues at all until they hit puberty then they start feeling anxious, insecure and disrespecting the rules. Because they're teenagers. People seem to have forgot this and run straight to neurodiversity

Even my autistic DS with 1:1 support who was often off sick knew just to follow his classmates. He would be lost on his own but following others is easy. I think there is something else going on here @VividDenimTiger .

You think both of you have ADHD. So did you make it to lessons on time at school?

If you excuse lateness as fine since 'you have ND and therefore can't be relied on to be on time', you're going to have excuse more and more as this becomes a get out of life free card. I'm sorry but no matter how difficult your conditions are, going from one room to the next is not that hard. Yes maybe harder for some but it's not that hard that it becomes impossible for you to do within a reasonable time .

What about headphones to wear in the corridor?

Couldn’t agree more. School corridors are difficult for everyone. Lots of aspects of secondary school are difficult.