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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

School lateness punishments, neurodiversity and the law

422 replies

VividDenimTiger · Today 05:35

Posting here for traffic really. DD 14 has had issues in secondary school- we suspect ADHD to be honest. I am unravelling my own mid life ADHD traits at the moment too.

For DD, one of the things that manifests in school is persistent lateness. She just can’t organise herself to get to lessons on time. The school has now brought in a punishment for lateness where anyone late more than 5 mins gets sent to a punishment room for the lesson. Needless to say DD is now missing loads of lessons because of her lateness.

I know that it’s annoying for teachers when kids are late for lessons but it feels like this policy unfairly targets kids, like my DD, who might or do have some issues with timekeeping because of other things going on.

Aibu? I am trying to unravel some of this for DD (and myself) but I am really angry about how punitive this policy is- it feels like it disadvantages kids who genuinely have issues with organising their time and themselves. The corridors are really busy in school and she gets upset and overwhelmed and that doesn’t help all of this.

OP posts:
VividDenimTiger · Today 05:47

Also, to add context, the school have also refused any support until she has a formal diagnosis but the wait list for that under right to choose is at leat 18 months so feels like we are stuck.

The stress of it all and for her, how awful she feels about the humiliation of being punished is also causing her to start to school refuse. Her lateness isn’t deliberate. We have tried strategies but they often don’t work. The school is so unsupportive.

And the school is then punishing for attendance issues - it’s like a cycle of doom. But the cause of her school refusal is the punishment for something she struggles with. It’s so awful.

OP posts:
sesquipedalian · Today 05:59

So what exactly do you think the school should do about this, OP? There’s a grace period of five minutes to get from one lesson to the next - does your DD not go with her friends? It’s not OK to have people drifting into lessons well after they’ve started - it’s not fair to the teacher, it’s disruptive to the class, and it’s unsettling for your DD to come in after the teacher has started setting up the lesson. It’s not fair for 31 other DC to be kept waiting while your DD organises herself. What exactly is your DD doing that causes her lateness? Does she have any friends who could help her to speed up from one class to the next? I’d be phoning the school to find out what exactly is causing the problem, and what can be done to find a solution - but expecting the whole class to be kept waiting for your DD is simply not reasonable or workable.

MiraculousLadybug · Today 06:00

Sorry I have ADHD and was chronically late to school in the morning and I think YABU. All she has to do is leave the classroom and follow the corridor to the next one to not be late between lessons. She shouldn’t be doing anything else in that time so I can’t see how you can blame this on her losing track of time. Additionally, you diagnosing her (and yourself) with the help of Dr Google is not the same as being properly diagnosed by a professional. The result of the assessment could be that she doesn’t have ADHD but you don’t seem at all prepared for that possibility, you’re already looking for things to allege discrimination about.

VividDenimTiger · Today 06:07

We’ve taken her to the doctor - it’s not Dr Google. There’s a massive wait for diagnosis.

And re the school- I expect them to make some allowances as they are meant to for kids who are on that pathway. She can’t bloody help it- it’s not as simple for her as walking between classes- she gets so overwhelmed. I asked the achool if she could leave a lesson 1 min early so she could travel between classes when it’s quieter to help the issue but they said no.

So she is getting punished and is achool refusing. The school do actually have a responsibility to try and support her.

Jesus.

OP posts:
Photobot · Today 06:10

Whether DD is ND or not, the school should be seeking to problem-solve (especially as the punishment doesn't seem to be working, clearly a new tactic is needed). Is there a pastoral or attendance manager you could speak to? They should be able to work on strategies as they don't want her being late either. You could work through what has already been tried.

SEND support is also based on need, not diagnosis. Assuming she's not vaping in the toilets instead of getting to class, they can't withhold support from a child based on not having a diagnosis (point them at the SEND code of practice). If the problem is overwhelm from busy corridors there are things they could do like leaving lessons a couple of minutes early. How is she late? Does she go somewhere until it's quiet and then make her way?

Leopardspota · Today 06:10

This thread sums up how schools have got to breaking point. People. Parents, employees…. Think that everything is someone else’s responsibility. What strategies has she tried? What tools have you given her?

As a parent it is also your job to support her in using strategies to overcome ‘issues with time’

how could a school function if everybody who thought they might have adhd or other EF issues was 5/10/15 minutes late …? It couldn’t. It not a reasonable adjustment to allow a child to wander in whenever they please and it wouldn’t be in the world of work either, you’re setting her up to beloeve that with a diagnosis this would be her right.

Overthebow · Today 06:11

What is the actual issue, why is she late to classes? Is it that there’s not enough time, she’s getting lost or another reason? You don’t know if she’s ND or not, but regardless maybe there’s something that could help her.

Photobot · Today 06:11

Oh sorry x posted. SEND code of practice for them then. In writing.

LizandDerekGoals · Today 06:11

What makes you suspect adhd and not autism? You are describing her issue as overwhelm with the corridors rather than getting organised. All children leave the room at the same time so again it isn't due to organisation. Have you seen the initial assessor and had testing done? What stage are you actually at?

LemonPenguin · Today 06:13

I agree that a punishment for a child who is finding something difficult is completely backwards. Have you spoken to her about what she is doing between lessons and exactly what’s happening in those transition times? Is she in the toilets for ages or distracted by friends (but presumably they have to get to their lessons too?) or taking an detour to a locker or going outside? I think drilling down into specifics is the only way you can help her otherwise it’s too vague. It could be really simple, if it’s that she has to nip to a locker then she needs to do that at the start rather than end, but equally it could be much more complex, if she’s in the toilet and anxious or avoiding something it’s harder to address- but either way you need some detail! Ideally the school would do this, but they won’t.

Happytaytos · Today 06:14

Ask her to articulate how "she can't help it". My experience of schools is that everyone leaves the classroom at a similar time, and walks straight to the next lesson. Where in that is she managing to be late?

My guess is that she's messing around in the corridors with friends and using the potential diagnosis as an excuse.

VividDenimTiger · Today 06:15

Photobot · Today 06:10

Whether DD is ND or not, the school should be seeking to problem-solve (especially as the punishment doesn't seem to be working, clearly a new tactic is needed). Is there a pastoral or attendance manager you could speak to? They should be able to work on strategies as they don't want her being late either. You could work through what has already been tried.

SEND support is also based on need, not diagnosis. Assuming she's not vaping in the toilets instead of getting to class, they can't withhold support from a child based on not having a diagnosis (point them at the SEND code of practice). If the problem is overwhelm from busy corridors there are things they could do like leaving lessons a couple of minutes early. How is she late? Does she go somewhere until it's quiet and then make her way?

Thankyou- this is exactly it. She hides outside where it’s calm. I have said to the school that leaving lessons a minute early would probably help but they just won’t have it.

I have tried to speak to the SENCO but they are just useless.

OP posts:
pinkdelight · Today 06:15

Where is she going and what is she doing other than going to the next lesson? How has she managed until this point with the busy corridors? My DS15 is diagnosed adhd and has it bad but still gets to lessons because he’s in school, everyone’s going to lessons and that’s all there is to do. I think it’s fair enough for you to be concerned and want to sort this with her (eg get her adhd diagnosed and medicated, or see if there’s something else going on) but being angry at that rule feels off, it’s not about it being annoying for teachers, it’s a fundamental part of being at school to learn and people being late messes it up for everyone else. What alternative is there that doesn’t disadvantage kids who can’t manage to get there? They can’t be allowed to show up at their convenience, for safeguarding as much as the need to get some learning done. I think you need to prioritise what’s really going on with your DD and ways to manage it not rage at the school for enforcing basic standards.

Happytaytos · Today 06:18

VividDenimTiger · Today 06:15

Thankyou- this is exactly it. She hides outside where it’s calm. I have said to the school that leaving lessons a minute early would probably help but they just won’t have it.

I have tried to speak to the SENCO but they are just useless.

A minute early probably won't make much difference, and 5 minutes early means she misses a lot of learning time over the year.

She could go outside for 1 minute and then go back in as corridors quieten.

QuirkyHorse · Today 06:19

All kids get packed up in class ready to leave when the bell goes.
Once the bell goes, off they go to to the next class. If she remained with her friends going to the next class, she will arrive with them on time.

You need to find out from her what is happening between her leaving one class and arriving at the next.
Is she cruising the corridors?
Hiding in the toilets?
Going to learning support with the excuse she needs to talk to someone?

Something that she is doing is preventing her arriving in a timely manner. You need to find out that something is and unpick why she is doing it.

If she is persistently late, she will be persistently punished. It is due to children arriving late that they have to implement this sort of policy. If it was the odd child here and there, they would suck it up.

FrenchT0ast · Today 06:19

Happytaytos · Today 06:14

Ask her to articulate how "she can't help it". My experience of schools is that everyone leaves the classroom at a similar time, and walks straight to the next lesson. Where in that is she managing to be late?

My guess is that she's messing around in the corridors with friends and using the potential diagnosis as an excuse.

The school would surely be reporting that and all the other kids would be in the same late rooms as punishment.

It’s not ok for the school to act this way op.They should be responding to need not diagnosis. I’d ask for a meeting with the SENCO. Have you considered autism too as they can often go together. That said you can get overwhelm with adhd too.

Besidemyselfwithworry · Today 06:19

VividDenimTiger · Today 06:15

Thankyou- this is exactly it. She hides outside where it’s calm. I have said to the school that leaving lessons a minute early would probably help but they just won’t have it.

I have tried to speak to the SENCO but they are just useless.

The waiting list for diagnosis is just terrible for young people - is there any way you could pay to go private for this? It might be worth looking into if it’s having this much effect.

VividDenimTiger · Today 06:20

LizandDerekGoals · Today 06:11

What makes you suspect adhd and not autism? You are describing her issue as overwhelm with the corridors rather than getting organised. All children leave the room at the same time so again it isn't due to organisation. Have you seen the initial assessor and had testing done? What stage are you actually at?

We’ve seen the GP and are in the referral process for right to choose so early stages. She finds concentration and organisation hard which is why ADHD - but the overwhelm could point to autism too. We don’t know- we are trying to understand what’s going on.

OP posts:
FrenchT0ast · Today 06:20

pinkdelight · Today 06:15

Where is she going and what is she doing other than going to the next lesson? How has she managed until this point with the busy corridors? My DS15 is diagnosed adhd and has it bad but still gets to lessons because he’s in school, everyone’s going to lessons and that’s all there is to do. I think it’s fair enough for you to be concerned and want to sort this with her (eg get her adhd diagnosed and medicated, or see if there’s something else going on) but being angry at that rule feels off, it’s not about it being annoying for teachers, it’s a fundamental part of being at school to learn and people being late messes it up for everyone else. What alternative is there that doesn’t disadvantage kids who can’t manage to get there? They can’t be allowed to show up at their convenience, for safeguarding as much as the need to get some learning done. I think you need to prioritise what’s really going on with your DD and ways to manage it not rage at the school for enforcing basic standards.

ADHD can present very differently in girls and can vary from person to person.

WonderingWanda · Today 06:20

5 mins is plenty of time to get between lessons and most students get there quicker. What on earth is she needing to organise? Print out and laminate a copy or her timetable and attach it to her pencil case so she always knows where she is going next.

LizandDerekGoals · Today 06:20

What has your doctor actually done? There are assessments then the ridiculous wait for diagnosis. This is the process in my authority. The first four are done quickly. The long wait is for the final point. Ive pasted it here so you might be able to go back to the gp and find out what stage you are at. But your child mostly needs strategies to get to class on time.

The process generally begins when concerns are identified by parents, school staff, nursery staff, a health visitor, or a GP who notice difficulties with attention, hyperactivity, communication, social interaction, sensory processing, or related developmental issues.

A referral is then made by a professional such as a GP, school nurse, paediatrician, SENCO, health visitor, therapist, psychologist, or social worker. Parents are not usually able to self-refer directly.

Once the referral is received, it is reviewed through a triage process to determine whether the child meets the criteria for the neurodevelopmental pathway. At this stage, additional information may be requested from both the child's school and parents.

If the referral is accepted, the child undergoes an assessment. For autism and ADHD, this is typically a multidisciplinary assessment involving a detailed developmental history from parents or carers, information gathered from the child's school or nursery, observation of the child, questionnaires and structured assessment tools, and a medical and developmental review by clinicians.

Following the assessment, an outcome appointment is held where the team discusses the findings and determines whether the child meets the diagnostic criteria for ADHD, autism, both conditions, or neither. A written report is usually provided, along with recommendations for school support, SEND processes, and any further services that may be beneficial.

pinkdelight · Today 06:23

Look into getting her privately assessed if at all poss. We were on the list for 3 years but saved and got it done privately within 6 months. It didn’t cost the earth and was transformative. If she’s at the point of school refusal nothing is more important than getting this addressed. As pp says you ntk if it is adhd or asd or something else, and get the right strategies and tools for her well in advance of GCSEs. Now’s the time to get her the help she needs.

pinkdelight · Today 06:25

FrenchT0ast · Today 06:20

ADHD can present very differently in girls and can vary from person to person.

Obviously. That’s a given. It doesn’t negate my points.

FrenchT0ast · Today 06:26

VividDenimTiger · Today 06:20

We’ve seen the GP and are in the referral process for right to choose so early stages. She finds concentration and organisation hard which is why ADHD - but the overwhelm could point to autism too. We don’t know- we are trying to understand what’s going on.

It would be approx £3k for both privately but you need to find somewhere good.I know it’s absolutely not ok to have to spend that amount but could you afford that?

I think I’d be emailing the SENCO and cc in the governor responsible for send so it’s in writing that they should be supporting according to need, the wait you are stuck with for diagnosis, your daughter’s right to an education, the need for her to be supported and the clear likelihood she is being discriminated against. Autism is a protected disability. They should be providing reasonable adjustments. Have they offered any kind of support? You need to try and unpick it with your daughter too as it will help.

Photobot · Today 06:28

It's not good to armchair diagnose but I'd be considering dyspraxia/DCD as well with the exec functioning challenges (that can be a quicker referral also). It's no good saying to a child that isn't managing 'just do it quicker' - it's not going to work, is it? OP isn't actually in the school every day.

I'd imagine this is just one part of a wider issue. It's really common to have an early leave pass- DD has one and also an early lunch pass. If a teacher can't manage a child leaving a couple of minutes early I'd be a bit worried about their classroom skills (and she'll be getting to the next lesson on time). The new Ofsted framework focuses so heavily on inclusion one would have though it would sharpen the minds of school leadership.

Has she tried something like loop earplugs to cut down on the noise?

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