School lateness punishments, neurodiversity and the law

[VividDenimTiger]

Posting here for traffic really. DD 14 has had issues in secondary school- we suspect ADHD to be honest. I am unravelling my own mid life ADHD traits at the moment too.

For DD, one of the things that manifests in school is persistent lateness. She just can’t organise herself to get to lessons on time. The school has now brought in a punishment for lateness where anyone late more than 5 mins gets sent to a punishment room for the lesson. Needless to say DD is now missing loads of lessons because of her lateness.

I know that it’s annoying for teachers when kids are late for lessons but it feels like this policy unfairly targets kids, like my DD, who might or do have some issues with timekeeping because of other things going on.

Aibu? I am trying to unravel some of this for DD (and myself) but I am really angry about how punitive this policy is- it feels like it disadvantages kids who genuinely have issues with organising their time and themselves. The corridors are really busy in school and she gets upset and overwhelmed and that doesn’t help all of this.

You haven’t had a child’s suffer through endless disruption then? Lucky you!

I remember at least 2-3 kids from my year at school that were clearly ND but were just seen as badly behaved and eventually got expelled. I’m sure there were more that didn’t exhibit challenging behaviour but also didn’t get any or got very few GCSE’s because they weren’t supported. These kids were there in the 1970s and 80s. It’s not a new thing.

I am genuinely interested.

How has this 5 minute diagnosis changed or improved your life?

What's different because if it?

Lucky you that you're so ignorant you think all disabled children should just go to a school for disabled children 😂

And that poster thinks sending disabled children elsewhere will magically stop all disruption.

I do wonder what kind of bubble some people live in…

To ask that question, you’ve clearly never dealt with being unable to manage the most simple of tasks that seemingly everyone else can do (such as being consistently on time, being able to start a task and see it through to the end, “just getting on with stuff” etc), but not really understanding why they can do it and you can’t. These things should be so EASY! What do they know that you don’t? What are you doing wrong? Why are you just doing life wrong?

A diagnosis helps you understand that there are concrete neurological reasons why you can’t do these things. That you’re not just stupid or disorganised, but that your brain works differently. It’s validation of your worth. It also help you then work out how you can do things differently to make sure that you can “do life”. And yes, it helps give you access to reasonable adjustments in the workplace via the Equality Act to help you be successful in the workplace.
It can also be the gateway to medication that is completely life changing for some people.

So that five minute diagnosis is very very important for those that want to seek it.

Quite a big one since they:

a) don't seem to realise specialist provisions already exist
b) you can't just send your disabled child to one
c) they're not all suitable for all disabled children
d) shoving every disabled child in a 'disabled children's school' would be unlawful and discriminatory
e) not all disabled children require specialist provision or settings, or that their needs can be perfectly well met in a mainstream school who understand and follow the equality act
f) shocker, not all disabled children are disruptive

Tell her to stop vaping between lessons and get a wriggle on.

Suffering? Melodramatic. Sounds like your child just needs a bit of resilience. Have you tried not coddling them so much and expecting them to just get on with it?

Am also assuming that the diagnosis itself wasn’t 5 mins, but observed as likely/pretty definite and confirmed by completion of the subsequent full diagnostic assessment.

But the assessment itself is liberating. Especially amongst late diagnosed women who may have had issues in relationships and holding down jobs and now understand why - earlier diagnosis and the insights it brings could ensure women stay in employment and navigate relationships (especially avoiding potentially toxic ones) more positively. It is not all about school - though the school environment has changed so much that it is no longer a safe, nurturing space for young people now.

I only sought out my diagnosis because my children pestered to know if I was too (we all knew I was) and then because I saw how much medication and coaching/counselling helped them develop strategies to better navigate life. I’ve managed and been relatively successful, but these techniques, self knowledge and access to medication in heavy work/study periods would have made life much less stressful. At times life as been unbearably hard. I think I’d have suffered less from anxiety and depression - and actually had therapy/meds that were more effective with a diagnosis. I hope more women get ADHD/AuDHD/Autism diagnoses sooner so they don’t have to muddle through life like I did.

It will certainly help though. I have 5 kids at various stages of education, 2 ND. This isn’t my first rodeo by any stretch of the imagination.

There are two different reasons for disruption - the kids who are just badly behaved and the ND ones. The ND children who cannot attend normal classes and sit calmly need to be educated elsewhere. The disruption to the other children’s education otherwise is endless.

The badly behaved children - and I’ll don my hard hat before saying this - are less common in middle class catchment areas. Middle class children simply have less traumatic home lives, so this distraction can be mitigated by buying into a leafy catchment. We did this. The difference in attitude and behaviour was astonishing. If children are too badly behaved to sit and learn they really need to be educated elsewhere too though, in PRUs. All children - leafy catchment or not - need a chance to be able to learn in a calm, safe, distraction free environment.

Educational standards are going to plummet if teachers cannot teach and children cannot learn.

It’s illegal for a school to refuse to support a child on the basis that they do not have a formal diagnosis

My disabled children aren’t disruptive, hence they’re fine in mainstream. They aren’t impacting other children’s ability to learn. Those that are need to be educated elsewhere. Children should have a right to learn in peace. Don’t you think that?

But didn’t you want all disabled children to be put into a separate school? You do know yours would be included in that?

Edit to add: this is what you said
We need to have schools for those with a disability and schools for those with no disability then.

Well I think most people would be happy for specialist provision but the government want to force even more into mainstream so I think this is unlikely.
Those with specialist provision are often travelling over an hour each way so also has further costs in transport.

So it's not simple as just saying put them in a special school.

Bringing is bringing a lot of ignorance to thd discussion. How cute

If you haven't experienced school as a disabled child or the parent of a disabled child you have no clue how difficult it is to get their needs met.

Fine as not being disruptive or fine as in receiving a suitable education for their age, aptitude and learning needs?

My child was apparently 'fine' in school because they caused no issue for the teacher, but they were far from fine because they were in a constant state of fear, they couldn't learn because the work wasn't appropriate for their SEN and their mental health was being destroyed

People have different views in what fine actually means

Yes I agree. We need more specialist schools. We aren’t going to get them. Children with difficulties will be put into mainstream who shouldn’t be there and educational standards will plummet, anxiety and violence in the classroom will skyrocket. Don’t believe me? Look at Scotland. They are the guinea pigs for what is being proposed for England and it’s horrendous.

Both. Coping and not disrupting others.

So, the punishment is to deny education? 🤔

So then you don't no what it is like when a child isn't coping because of unmet needs

Either your child's needs are being met by the school or they don't have the needs.
Either way you obviously do not understand the situation of a child being failed by a school.not meeting needs.

As I said my child wasn't disruptive but in many ways I with they had been because this would likely have resulted in the support they needed - however, as they were not disruptive they were easy for the school to ignore and neglect

They are educated elsewhere. I’m sorry you don’t like what I am saying, but I’ve had children in a school with lots of disruption and some in schools with minimal disruption and the difference in the quality of education is really very stark indeed.

We can have shambolic, ‘inclusive’ schools where learning is really affected by disruption or we can have separation where those who can sit quietly can really get on with learning, and make great strides. We’re choosing the former which is certainly more inclusive, but we cannot turn a blind eye to the downsides.

But can you not see that for some people (I don't know you so I am quite happy to accept that this does not apply to you) such a diagnosis could also give people an excuse to cop out of life, claim benefits rather than work, see themselves as unfortunate victims deserving of the pity (and support) of others.

I suspect you have shown resilience but perhaps this better qualifies you to answer the questions of how as a society do we better distinguish between those who have genuinely significant mental health needs and those that just think they have?

I think it's directly comparable.

If it's safe enough for a profoundly deaf child to walk without one on one guidance down a crowded corridor then it's safe enough for a child with noise cancelling earphones, whose evidenced disability is their inability to walk down that corridor without them, to do the same.