School lateness punishments, neurodiversity and the law

[VividDenimTiger]

Posting here for traffic really. DD 14 has had issues in secondary school- we suspect ADHD to be honest. I am unravelling my own mid life ADHD traits at the moment too.

For DD, one of the things that manifests in school is persistent lateness. She just can’t organise herself to get to lessons on time. The school has now brought in a punishment for lateness where anyone late more than 5 mins gets sent to a punishment room for the lesson. Needless to say DD is now missing loads of lessons because of her lateness.

I know that it’s annoying for teachers when kids are late for lessons but it feels like this policy unfairly targets kids, like my DD, who might or do have some issues with timekeeping because of other things going on.

Aibu? I am trying to unravel some of this for DD (and myself) but I am really angry about how punitive this policy is- it feels like it disadvantages kids who genuinely have issues with organising their time and themselves. The corridors are really busy in school and she gets upset and overwhelmed and that doesn’t help all of this.

It does as because your son’s adhd does not speak for all . It’s hugely complex with girls, can present very differently , is often hidden( sometime catastrophically so) and girls are often overlooked due to the presentation being very different and hugely let down in the lead up to and the diagnosis process.

When I worked in a school with neurodiverse children the most common difficulty was the corridors in between lessons which became so crowded the children became so anxious and overwhelmed . I taught them strategies to cope like having a figit toy in their pocket , practicing breathing exercises and counting doors (distraction from anxious thoughts ) . Also asking teachers if they could leave a couple of minutes early to get to the next lesson without the crush . I also held a quiet room at lunchtime so they could regulate . I’m an occupational therapist by profession but the school didn’t get it , prioritise this support, so much needed for the children , so I sadly left . The new rules about attendance are very punishing for children with neurodiversity . However at the same time as a parent, I would work hard on skills to manage being overwhelmed in crowded areas as this will help throughout life

So have you found out exactly what your DD is doing once the lesson ends and she should be moving on to the next one? You haven’t answered that yet?

I actually did suggest loop earplugs to the when I was trying to explain what was happen in and try and offer some suggestions. They were really sneery and basically no to that too and that they would confiscate.

It’s honestly been a nightmare- the schools attitude to potential neurodiversity seems to be wildly unsupportive which is why I was questioning their statutory duty.

Some of the posts on here are super helpful thanks v much.

What strategies has she tried to help herself?

if she is getting over whelmed then could she try sticking some loop ear phones in or some ear defenders on to help counter some of the sensory input from the noise?

could she identify a friend from each lesson who is going to the same next lessson as her and stay with them?

im not unsympathetic to her struggles but as a parent the best thing you can do now is help her find the best ways for her to manage things. There are always going to be times when she needs to be on time, and there are always going to be times places are busy so the key is giving her a tool bank to deal with it as best as she can

Have a look at what’s causing her anxiety here, no one’s picking up on that. Plenty of issues here but she’s going to need to work through it and she can with ADHD, Autism however different story

There will already be a time allowed for changeover, usually around 5 minutes. Then there's the additional 5 minutes grace. I'm sorry but I just don't understand how it's taking her more than 10 minutes to walk from one room to another, she's obviously doing something else instead.

The school cannot allow her extra time. There are several ND students in each class and they will all be entitled to the same. It'll be absolute chaos for the teachers.

Especially given you don't have a diagnosis so technically any teenager who feels like they're missing out on something, will be able to self diagnose and demand the same. It just won't work.

She did have some counselling for anxiety in year 7- there have been issues since she started secondary. She thrived in primary but it all fell apart once we got to secondary.

She’s definitely been able to mask better but she also suffers with terrible periods and that’s kind of made things worse since they started too. It’s been like an unravelling - apparently this is quite common according to doctor.

It is a massive school- 1800 pupils so it’s very full on in the corridors and there’s lots of shouting and noise.

This is a really good point. 10 minutes into lessons here the corridors are totally empty. Most of the time, 3 minutes into lesson changeover they're empty, so how is she being late if it is the busyness of the corridors?

I didn’t speak for all. I shared my experience which isn’t irrelevant and is a totally normal way to respond, before going onto talk more broadly and ask questions. Of course girls’ psychology is hugely complex and no one’s speaks for another’s. It seems daft to have to state that among people who’ve dealt with their ND DC and making it work in the system.

I wonder if because there is no support in lessons she’s holding it all together each lesson by the skin of her teeth and then gets overwhelmed on leaving, tries to find somewhere quiet for 2 seconds or a quieter route , gets confused re routes, needs the loo or to just be alone.

Unpick it as the more evidence you have the better. I’d gently ask if there are any bullying issues too.

ND family here so completely get it and my DD came out of MS school at 12. Things that helped before she left - she had an early exit card from lessons, and left end of school day 5mins early. This was counted balanced by going in 20mins early for send breakfast club and registration in quiet room with other send kids. She could wear the clear musicians ear plugs (no one noticed) they reduced noise but she could still hear teacher in quiet classroom. Sensory breaks daily so reduced timetable they removed a couple of lessons in subjects she was never going to take at gcse level (French & history in her case). You can ask for “Reasonable Adjustments” for send needs. My DD is far far happier home Ed and taking GCSE’s early as she actually chooses to learn now she’s in a quieter calmer environment.

Get her to put the loops in herself and if challenged, deal with it later. Most staff know what they are.

A squish toy in her pocket is a good idea too.

She does need to take some responsibility for being in the right place at the right time.

Have you thought about moving her? I wouldn’t normally jump to that but you say the school are useless, the SENCo is useless and you don’t agree with the punishments… I’m not sure where that leaves you other than looking at other schools.

The leaving 1 minute early, I can understand why they said no to that because 1 minute isn’t going to leave her enough time to miss the crowds and it’ll be the same outcome. Plus it’s disruptive for the rest of the class to have one child packing up early in every lesson. What you need to focus on is stopping the punishments - or get that time allowance extended for her so if it’s 5 minutes for NT kids, trying to get an allowance of 10 minutes for her (although it doesn’t sound that they will allow this, hence the advice to move altogether).

So she can't control her attendance or punctuality. Have you ever flipped it around and wondered what she can control?

Squish toys make no difference.
i'm surprised they don't let her leave early

To add my DD has just worn loop ear plugs Quiet2 version in an external exam sitting. We got this agreed as access arrangements as part of taking some GCSE’s early now she’s home Ed and not in mainstream school. She played around with the ear bud sizes and found some she liked.

Lots of schools are removing this as a strategy due to the disruption in lesson time and the disruption caused on corridors.

You said

“My DS15 is diagnosed adhd and has it bad but still gets to lessons because he’s in school, everyone’s going to lessons and that’s all there is to do. “

That is pretty much expecting everybody else with adhd to be the same. They’re not. Boys with adhd can often be more disruptive in class than girls. Holding it in with zero support can have really difficult consequences.

Your son is lucky enough to have been diagnosed and will have access to medication and reasonable adjustments as a result. Others aren’t so lucky.

You have two issues here. The school do sound rubbish BUT your daughter does need to master this skill, otherwise you’re not preparing her for adult life. My ND 12 year old has exactly the same circumstances, the corridors are insanely busy. Her big sister taught her to make a ‘train’ with her friends (they all hold each others bags) to help the smaller kids feel safe and not get knocked.

And your evidence for that is?

The SEND provision in school is based on need, not diagnosis. Very good suggestion above to email the SENDCO and also the SEND governor to request reasonable adjustments.

DD has a leave-early card so she can move through the corridors before they get overwhelming. Teachers are also supposed to set homework at the start of lessons, so those leaving early aren't penalised. Having a set seat in each class is also useful, that DD chooses for each classroom at the start of the year. Loop earplugs are a reasonable adjustment, plus a discreet fidget and access to the sensory room whenever necessary.

Overall though, DD is in a smaller school because there's no way she'd cope with a massive school and the noise/bustle of thousands of people.

This is really common. The relative stability of primary, single class teacher etc to a complete change of up to 6 teachers a day with different routines/classrooms is where many kids fall apart.
I’ll acknowledge the school isn’t being helpful but I also note you are only engaging with posts that validate your perspective.
Talking to your daughter in more detail will help understand what she actually does in those 5mins. As other posters have suggested you can start to develop strategies with her that she can use outside of school. I assume you’ll want her to earn a living and be independent at some point?