to think DM is unfair to ban the twins from visiting?

[timetoban]

My sister has four children: an 6-year-old, a 5-year-old and 2-year-old twins.
The older two are easy visitors. They tend to sit quietly, chat a bit and spend a lot of time on their screens. The twins, however, are typical two-year-olds. They run around, make noise, have the occasional tantrum and create a bit of mess.
DM is very house-proud and likes everything neat, tidy and pristine.

She has become increasingly irritated by the twins whenever they visit. She complains that they don't sit nicely, don't behave properly and are too noisy. Personally, I think her expectations of two-year-olds are unrealistic.

The latest development is that she has told DSis that the twins are no longer welcome at her house. She says DSis can bring the older two, but not the younger ones.

The problem is that DSis's husband works long hours and isn't always available to stay home with the twins. So in practice, this means DSis often can't visit at all, or has to choose between seeing DM and staying with her younger children.

DM says it's her house and she's entitled to decide who comes into it. DSis feels hurt that two of her children have effectively been singled out and excluded.

If she wasn’t like this when the other 2 were younger what has changed? Are they significantly worse.

I don’t allow my young children to race around other people’s houses for their own safety as well as respect.

Does your mother realise that she's willingly giving up any relationship with her grandchildren?

Sad for your sister to realise that her mother's house is more important to her than family. But at least they've had a lucky escape before the kids think this is normal.

Your mum is being awful, unless there’s some sort of health issue? How old is she ? Is this a change in behaviour? Is she finding things generally harder to cope with?
There’s lots of ways around this if really wanted to see your sister. Picnic or walk at the park, or visit your sister.
She just needs to say sorry mum, I can’t visit and not bring all the kids I don’t have childcare. You are very welcome to pop in and see me for a quick cuppa or meet me at the park. If she does agree to meet up keep it short.

This with fucking bells on

Either we are all invited or none of us

Come on. People pursue relationships with their parents out of love and hope and wanting to build a relationship with their own kids. It’s unreasonable to hint that someone is a poor mum of young kids if she wants to pursue this relationship. Family dynamics are complicated and not always logical. It’s not like the grandmother is dangerous or has actually done anything to the toddlers yet. Why are you so desperate to critique the sister here I wonder?

It's not OP's mum's problem as long as she is happy to never see her daughter and grandchildren again as she refuses to visit OP and her sister and OP's sister can't just leave her toddler twins at home.

Tbh, I'm not sure why anyone would want to visit her. She sounds dreadful.

Not sure why your sister even wants to visit the old witch.

I'm just amazed your sister hasn't told her what to go and do with herself. I would have.

Why doesnt DM come to DSs house, then she cant complain about her palace being wrecked by toddlers who do what toddlers do.?

Early 70s. She is ok health wise mostly. I think she has got used to living quietly.

If I was your sister I would simply cut contact with your mother

she would not be seeing any of the children again

Totally agree. Children play, make noise, throw tantrums and disrupt routines, that's all normal.
I can't believe that your mum has set this rule re the twins, your sister has every right to be upset.
When my GC came to mine, I fully prepared for the shift required. That is what loving GPS do.

If your DM can't cope with the understandable and normal chaos of twins, then she can't cope with it. As you say, she's gotten used to living a quiet life and twins and two year olds just aren't quiet.

She's not wrong to feel that way. Unfortunately for her though, that comes with natural consequences. If it means your Dsis can't visit as often, then it is what it is.

It sounds like your Dsis might be visiting there a lot during the day, so she doesn't feel as alone, and even if she does clean up, it's just become too much for your mum.

Let your sister play by her mum's rules for a few weeks and let her see how contact changes. She may decide that once or twice a week with the twins is okay, especially as they grow up a little bit too.

I don't think anyone is wrong or right in this situation.

As a 60yr old granny, I have sympathy for the DM.

I’m not remotely house proud but it’s the noise and energy from v young children, that I struggle with. One or two young ones are manageable but I can easily imagine feeling very overwhelmed with 4 running around, especially two lively 2yr olds!

I mean, if the older ones just chat politely for a bit then go on their screens it doesn't sound like they will miss going to granny's house much. Why would your sister want such young children going onto screens anyway? (And what type of decent grandmother would approve of screens?)
They will have to just wait and see granny in a few years when they are less rambunctious.

Traits get worse as we age and it sounds as though your DM has gone into the extreme of needing order around her. I'd try to spend more time around her to see if anything else is going on. She could be going into cognitive decline. If you can go there, without your children and open up conversations, that's what I'd do.

Two year old twins have got to be hard work. I don't think I'd want that at 70 either and I'm not at all house proud. I can completely understand why it's too much for your mum.

Had your sister been visiting your mother a lot before the ban?
What was your mother like when you were growing up?

I have a relative who did this. They are much lonelier than the relatives who welcomed all with open arms

Not so ‘D’ M would not be having visits from ANY of my children if I were her DD or DiL after an ultimatum like that. If she isn’t prepared to visit and/or make concessions for toddlers behaving like toddlers then she gets nothing. I suspect that’s probably what she wants tbh.

Tell your sister to find some supportive playgroups and go to those instead during the days.

Your mum sounds incredibly unrealistic and unkind and she can be alone. No way would I be bringing the 'acceptable grandchildren' around without the siblings ... she can be lonely.

Your mother is entitled to be "a bit of a recluse" who "has got used to living quietly". She is entitled to tell your sister "that the twins are no longer welcome at her house".

However - she should be careful what she wishes for. She is not entitled to remain a central figure in other people's lives when she makes zero effort to be in theirs.

So - is your mother aware that your sister will now be unable to visit at all? And that since she refuses to visit herself, she will simply not see her daughter and four grandchildren? That as the twins (and their older siblings) grow older they will forget her, and the grandmother-grandchild bond will be weakened and eventually wither away? Is she expecting to make the twins welcome again when they are older (when they will regard her as a stranger their mother seems to know well)?

She may well find herself sitting in that "neat, tidy and pristine" house of hers - alone. And it will be all her own doing. She may well rue her decision then.

I do go over on my own sometimes. I think DM would like me and DSis to come without our children so we can sit in peace and have conversations. We both get very little child free time to accommodate that. It is just not realistic with young children.

Yes of course. But the sister yearning for a relationship with her mother/kids’ grandmother is not in itself pathological. It’s understandable within a family. It’s easy to give advice and I think this grandmother is quite cold and awful. But once in this situation, it’s hard to be as black and white I am sure.