to think DM is unfair to ban the twins from visiting?

[timetoban]

My sister has four children: an 6-year-old, a 5-year-old and 2-year-old twins.
The older two are easy visitors. They tend to sit quietly, chat a bit and spend a lot of time on their screens. The twins, however, are typical two-year-olds. They run around, make noise, have the occasional tantrum and create a bit of mess.
DM is very house-proud and likes everything neat, tidy and pristine.

She has become increasingly irritated by the twins whenever they visit. She complains that they don't sit nicely, don't behave properly and are too noisy. Personally, I think her expectations of two-year-olds are unrealistic.

The latest development is that she has told DSis that the twins are no longer welcome at her house. She says DSis can bring the older two, but not the younger ones.

The problem is that DSis's husband works long hours and isn't always available to stay home with the twins. So in practice, this means DSis often can't visit at all, or has to choose between seeing DM and staying with her younger children.

DM says it's her house and she's entitled to decide who comes into it. DSis feels hurt that two of her children have effectively been singled out and excluded.

I wouldn't visit at all. Not on my own, not with my husband, not with my two oldest children. I would not go to a place where my children are not welcome. If your mother was ill, in great pain, suffering...I would understand two toddlers being too mich for her. Does your mother understand she's alienating the children? Would the older children accept in the long run that their siblings are not welcome at grandma's?

I'd be trying to have a good think about what the aim of these visits is. Is it just because you feel guilty if you don't do it? Is it because you are worried that people might judge you for not doing it? It might help your sister if she understands what the purpose of these visits is and what she and her kids are likely to get out of them realistically. Sometimes you have to really lower your expectations.

This.

when you say she was “abusive”…. What would happen?

and you are no longer a child. Hence her not being able to be abusive to you like she was

@timetoban i can feel the sadness behind your words.
The hope you could find a way with your mum that would allow for good grandparent-parent-grandchildren relationship. The wish to have good, close relationship with her.
And her ‘rejecting’ the twins feels like a smack in the face.
Because you know there is no other way than to accommodate around her again.

im sorry. 😢😢

There is that.
But also the triggers (like creating mess like any child would do) are gone. And the OP and her dsister have learnt how to ‘behave’ around her.

I feel the DM is still like she was - anything to get the calm and order she wants. Just Nowdays its electronics to keep children quiet rather than the fear (OP’s word) DM used when they were children.

It’s very sad imo.
I suspect the DM has arranged her life to fit with her needs (hence she is more of a recluse, demands order, ban the twins etc….) regardless of the impact on others and herself in the MT/LT.
id see someone who is ND or with MH issues doing that for example (not saying it’s the case. These are just examples btw)

As tge child of parents like this, it’s hard to come to terms with it. And to decide how much you accommodate (again!) or not.

I have to ask...did she behave like this when the older children were around 2 years old?

OP, maybe your sister could tell your mum to visit her in HER home. Then, if the noise and activity become too much for Gran, she can leave any time she likes. She’ll be control. Something she’d probably like.

I'm afraid if some of my children aren't welcome none of them would be visiting. The two oldest must be bored out their minds too.
Stupid to expect two children who have just turned two to sit still for any length of time and very unfair to them too. I feel sorry for your sister and if I were her I would say to her mum I'll be back when the younger two can behave. Your mum has to have some give and take unless she's just not interested enough. She's failing as a grandmother.

A role that she had no say in… it doesn’t sound like she likes the toddler age and that’s up to her.

the children, and not the grandma and her wishes, should be prioritised here. what are they getting out of these visits? doesnt seem like grandma is very interested in them. what are you teaching the older two when you stop taking the twins to the visits? i’m surprised you have time to accommodate these crazy requests from her with 4 kids and a partner who works long hours. i maybe would
just accept grandma is just not so much into being grandma and worry less bout the consequences of what happens if you visit less (or not at all, for a while).

This is madness. Early 70s is not that old! My Mum is 78 has terminal cancer (okay apart from chemo infusion weeks) and very unexpectedly lost my Dad, her husband, late last year. She has just had my niece’s on her own for 4 days and is also desperate for my oldest to go up to her over Summer with friends. They are all older - primary or secondary age - but still!

My Gran spent Christmas with us and two under 4 age 94 and was happy playing play doh and stuff with them.

Age is not the issue here unless there are underlying health concerns.

I am sorry OP. Sounds absolutely awful for your sister.

She should just tell the Mum that the only option is to visit the kids in her (your sisters) house. She can leave if it gets too overwhelming for her and she doesn't have to deal with any mess, can go straight back to her neat quiet house and destress. It just depends on whether your Mum wants to have a relationship with your sister and her kids.

This is how OP described her mother when she and her sister were children:

'Emotionally: abusive, overly strict on discipline, cold and heartless mostly.'

OP's mum did have a say in the role of motherhood and it sounds as though she was equally horrible to her own children. I can't imagine anyone enjoying her company. I think OP visits out of a sense of duty.

I meant she had no say in becoming a grandmother

I know you meant that. I was saying that whether she had a say in the relationship with young children or not, her behaviour towards them was unpleasant and unkind.

It is up to her though - many people would struggle with two toddlers if they weren’t theirs.

I think the best option is DM and DSis meet from time to time for a coffee alone (ie when DH is free) and maybe you could join them too OP. If your DM finds her grandkids too noisy there’s not much else DSis can do if she wants to maintain a relationship with DM.

"Not theirs " she's the grandmother, a lot of people would love seeing little ones.

It sounds like she’s neurodivergent… OCD or Autism or both.
She can’t handle the noise, the mess, going anywhere herself… and the way she raised you sounds strongly like it too.
Have you ever suspected neurodivergence?

I’m sorry you’re all going through this.. I don’t have any words of wisdom but just thought I’d add this because I didn’t think I saw it any other reply…

And a lot of people wouldn’t. Twin toddlers aren’t everyone’s bag.

You know it’s not always ND though. Some people find toddlers (particularly in stereo ) annoying

In terms of that, me and my sister had no say in becoming daughters.

It’s not comparable. Just because you and your sister have children doesn’t bestow some kind of obligation on your mother to take endless delight in the twins.

As you say, it’s impossible to stop children of that age from being loud and chaotic. Your mother realises that but clearly can’t deal with the noise etc. i get that - I would have a banging headache within the first five minutes as i go into sensory overload

If she didn’t like small children when she herself had them, why on earth would you t
expect her to cope around twin toddlers, with the ear piercing noise and the mess that is expected

What an entitled, controlling, selfish diva! I’m not sure I’d want to expose any of my children to this person. If sis’s MIL is a more reasonable person with, perhaps certain boundaries and time limits, but welcoming and loving to grandkids, OP’s sister should encourage that grandparent relationship and GM should have to accept that her choice will seriously diminish her connection with Sister’s kids. If I am fortunate enough to have grandchildren, the last thing I’d want to do is encourage them to be on screens instead of interacting with real people. Grandma is free to set her requirements. OP and Sis are free to not abide by them and to allow Granny to deal with the consequences of her choices. She might enjoy being left alone and not having to accommodate the realities of time with young children. They can be busy, messy, loud. But they can also be very tender, funny, creative, humourus, and loving.