to think DM is unfair to ban the twins from visiting?

[timetoban]

My sister has four children: an 6-year-old, a 5-year-old and 2-year-old twins.
The older two are easy visitors. They tend to sit quietly, chat a bit and spend a lot of time on their screens. The twins, however, are typical two-year-olds. They run around, make noise, have the occasional tantrum and create a bit of mess.
DM is very house-proud and likes everything neat, tidy and pristine.

She has become increasingly irritated by the twins whenever they visit. She complains that they don't sit nicely, don't behave properly and are too noisy. Personally, I think her expectations of two-year-olds are unrealistic.

The latest development is that she has told DSis that the twins are no longer welcome at her house. She says DSis can bring the older two, but not the younger ones.

The problem is that DSis's husband works long hours and isn't always available to stay home with the twins. So in practice, this means DSis often can't visit at all, or has to choose between seeing DM and staying with her younger children.

DM says it's her house and she's entitled to decide who comes into it. DSis feels hurt that two of her children have effectively been singled out and excluded.

What can you do? 🤷‍♀️
The g/mum is entitled to have her house the way she likes it. The daughter is allowed to feel hurt and offended. The loser, of course, is the g/mum. I'm guessing there's back story, ie g/mum has always been particular and/or daughter doesn't try and minimize toddler chaos.

My parents are the opposite and moan the grandchildren shouldn’t be on screens. We try to walk around the park so they can run around and my 15 year old DD is great with her little cousins.

Sounds like she is not a very nice grandmother to any of the children.

So win-win

Your sister has an excuse to visit less, all the DC can relax at home instead.
It can’t be that pleasant for your sister to visit with all 4 children due to the stress of keeping her mother happy.

Your DM will get her peace and quiet, but won’t see as much of your sister or the older children. That is the price she will pay for having a spotless and quiet house.

“The internet people!”

Can’t believe this OP hasn’t yet admitted that it is her 2 year old twins that have been banned by her mum.

Obviously will be denied! But if the OP isn’t the sister - then the fact that she’s pretty much dedicated her life over the last 2 days to discussing it with mumsnet and relentlessly basically repeating that her mum is unreasonable (certainly seems utterly fucked up to me to ban your own 2 year gran children from your home but if mumsnet has taught me anything - it’s that some families are awful) is…. Weird

It sounds as if your sister has accepted the situation. Your mother is probably not terribly keen on or interested in any of the children or children in general. If she has to put up with them, she prefers them to be silent, invisible almost. So your sister, if she wishes to continue to see your mother, will perhaps need to leave the twins or maybe all her children with her husband when he is not working and pop in to see her mother on her own. It may be that your mother is simply not interested in seeing any of her grandchildren - not everyone likes children. Best to just pop in for a chat and a cup of tea. It's sad but she clearly cannot cope.

I don't know why your DSis bothers. From what you've said your DM expects the older ones to spend most of the visits on their screens. She doesn't help with any of them. She won't go anywhere to meet you and if she's as reclusive as she sounds then I doubt that she's got anything interesting to chat with her grandkids about. What are these children getting out of spending time there?

It all sounds like going through a pointless ritual to appear like a close family but there's nothing there. If I was your DSis I'd just visit enough to not feel guilty and find better things to do with the children.

My FIL was very unwelcoming to his grandchildren and grumbled the whole time about them even though they were very well behaved. He now grumbles that they never visit him in his care home. The grandchildren (late teens)are very close to their other grandparents and are often round there helping out with the garden or tech issues or just having a cup of tea and a chat. The effort that the adults put in when the children were younger led to a very positive situation for all of them.

She does get this now and again but it is not as often as she prefers.

😂

When my sister goes to see her MIL and FIL with the children, it is the opposite experience. All the children are welcomed, they are free to play and run around. The older two do not go on screens.

If you turn it around maybe your Dsis could have noticed before that four young kids was too much in one go for your Mum. How long do visits last? I think it’s sad for them both but your Mum is telling you she can’t cope.

I expect they will continue to have a much better relationship with their grandchildren as they get older.

My friend's children wheel their grandfather round from the care home to the pub for a pint on sunny weekend afternoons. Grandchildren can be very handy when they grow up.

2 hours once a week. She is fine with the older two and they are not banned, only the twins.

Well Dsis could get annoyed and stop speaking to your Mum or what I would do ..just brush over it and not visit with the little ones until they’re older. I’m sure your Mum will eventually ask to see them. Is your Mum ok health wise?

It all sounds like going through a pointless ritual to appear like a close family but there's nothing there.

this.

this is not a close and loving family.

What would you do with the little ones when you saw your mum?

Well unless there’s someone else to look after them I wouldn’t be able to visit my mum until they were a bit older? Maybe meet up in the park?

Yes we had 2 year old twins - but since we only had twins (ie no siblings) it was easier to train them to sit quietly. We started taking them to restaurants when they were only a few months old - they would sit in high chairs with finger foods and other small none noisy toys.

As toddlers they would sit quietly in restaurants, and if we were on holiday at restaurants so the meals were longer, they were allowed an iPad or kindle after their desserts. Once another table paid for our meal as a surprise, as they had expected the twins to be noisy but they were so well behaved they were pleased the twins had not affected their meal.

At six months we took them to Australia (two flights so journey 24hrs in total including 17hrs of flying and the rest travel to and from airports or waiting in airports) and they continued going to Australia once a year until they were about 10.

But we had the huge benefit of having only two children to train - I can imagine with 4 young kids your poor sister is pulling her hair out.

But also if 2hrs is too much for her kids the solution is to ask your mother if she can trial 45mins and see how that goes.

She is planning on not visiting with the twins as DM wants.

She is mostly ok healthwise.

If your DM was abusive to you and your sister do you really want her to have a relationship with your DC?

If the older DC are on screens whilst visiting her they are not getting anything from visiting gran.

She is still family and she is not being abusive now.

What is she doing with the twins then ?
Me l just wouldn't visit at all.

I feel so sad for you and your sister, OP. Your mum wasn't able to meet your emotional needs as children and you learnt it was dangerous not to do as she pleased, so you've likely followed that pattern in your adult lives as well, continuing to try to prioritise keeping mum happy. At the same time, you've wanted childhood to be different for your children as you don't want them to feel scared to express themselves as you did. The visits to mum pose a dilemma, because you can't follow both scripts at the same time. You can't simultaneously keep mum happy and allow children to express themselves. Whatever script you prioritise, you are going to feel uncomfortable because you are denying the other one. I'll bet your sister doesn't feel she's following her parenting instincts when she sticks her young children on tablets to keep them quiet either! There isn't a right and wrong answer to this, and the middle ground of seeing mum when possible and respecting her preferences to the degree that it is possible on those less frequent visits is sensible. Most likely your mum was doing the best she could with the (practical and psychological) resources she had available, but it's still ok to feel sad that she wasn't able to prioritise you over having an immaculate home.

Thank you for such a thoughtful reply.

There is definitely some truth in what you say about adapting ourselves around DM's preferences. Keeping the peace and avoiding upsetting her has often felt easier than challenging things.

I think what makes this situation particularly sad is that the twins aren't doing anything unusual. They're just being two-year-olds. Asking them to sit quietly for long periods in a pristine house is a big ask for any toddler, let alone twins.

There is a tension between wanting children to be children and wanting to accommodate DM's wishes. Neither DSis nor I want endless chaos, but nor do we want children feeling that normal childhood behaviour makes them unwelcome.

The point about there not being a perfect solution is totally accurate. DM is unlikely to change her views and DSis can't magically turn two-year-olds into quiet eight-year-olds.