to think it is acceptable to smack someone if they touch your body, even if they have dementia?

[haleey]

I visit my grandad in a care home regularly and sometimes male residents will touch women unexpectedly. I’ve had my waist touched, boobs grabbed and one man touched my privates while smiling at me. I know they are ill and confused, but honestly I think people act as though women are supposed to just tolerate it because “they can’t help it”.

Part of this for me is that I have been assaulted before, so my reflex when someone suddenly touches me unexpectedly is to hit out before I even properly think. It is an automatic panic response.

Recently one resident suddenly grabbed me and I instinctively smacked his hand away. One of the staff immediately told me off and said “he can’t help it”. I understand that dementia affects behaviour and judgement, but I found it upsetting that the focus instantly became about him rather than acknowledging that I had just been touched without consent and panicked.

I’m not talking about beating vulnerable elderly people or deliberately hurting confused residents. But I also don’t think women should be expected to quietly accept unwanted touching because the person is elderly or cognitively impaired.

Of course it is still sexual assault but obviously culpability changes but not the experience of the person being assaulted.

I despair of women who are so effusive about how much abuse other women should silently tolerate and still preach from what they consider to be a place of moral superiority.

This man is not responsible, this woman was sexually assaulted, both can be absolutely true, swiping his had away is entirely appropriate and acceptable.

If you intend to do it, it’s not a reflex. You could end up being barred from the care home if you repeatedly assault the residents.

In all honesty I can’t actually believe some of the things I’m reading here. We’re talking about elderly men with degenerative and terminal conditions who are not responsible for their actions being treated as though they are deliberate sex pests.

My mum passed away at the age of 95 a few weeks ago. She was in the final advanced stages of vascular dementia. She was grabby and tended to act inappropriately in the latter months and often lashed out in confusion and distress. There were always gentle methods of interruption without resorting to what we’re talking about here - which is physical violence in response to disability. Reading some of these comments I can only reiterate what I would have done if a visitor had physically assaulted mum, but I can’t post that without risking deletion.

You don't have a degenerative brain disease do you though. So perhaps take control of your actions and use that healthy brain of yours to protect yourself and others.
Don't know why you posted on here where you've obviously made your mind up that you're perfectly entitled to slap terminally ill patients. Very odd.

My son was in a mens ward in the hospital the women's ward was next door. One elderly lady kept wandering in trying to get into bed with random male patients for sex.

Well, to be fair, most men are somewhat 'pervy', so she probably wasn't too far wrong. But yes - I see your point that she didn't know for all of them. Fair enough!

How hard are you smacking them, it is assault and you know that, a relative could also report you.

This. OP clearly believes that physical violence, however measured, is an appropriate way to respond to vulnerable dementia sufferers. It’s not. It’s assault. That makes her more of a threat to them than they ever will be to her. I’ve worked within a care home in a senior position and if I had witnessed a visitor behaving like this to vulnerable residents they wouldn’t have set foot there again.

I would want my family member to moved out of a care which (1) couldn't safely facilitate visits (2) turned a blind eye to visitors hitting residents.

So it's not rape if the person has dementia? Somehow I don't think that would erase the trauma for the victim who has been raped.

The same goes for groping, to a lesser degree. It might not be legally sexual assault, but the victim is experiencing a sexual violation that is still just as upsetting or triggering.

Yes - one grabbed my boobs about 15 years ago! He ran towards me and stuck his hands out to grab me. He was about 15 and his carer told me off for wearing a low cut top!

If someone grabs me without warning, I think it's likely they'll have their hand smacked away, regardless of age or mental state. After that initial reaction of shock, of course I'd just get away from them if at all possible and take measures to avoid it happening again, but before that, it's pure instinct. That's just the way it is.

You seem to be agreeing with what I said while appearing to argue with me

No it's not rape. Yes the person who experiences it will still feel it is. No it's not sexual assault. Yes the person who experiences it will still feel assaulted.

The legal difference is not some abstract concept though. We as a society recognise that people who actually have no control over their actions can't be punished for them. But OP is doing so, which is wrong for the same reason we don't imprison 5 year old who unknowingly hurt others.

The flip side is if someone plans to do something even if it doesn't work, they can be punished. Eg hiring a hit man to kill your wife, even if they don't do it, can be punished as harshly as murder. Because intent is always relevant.

Because they lack the capacity to understand why you are basically physically assaulting them. That’s the point. You are just adding to the misery.

They can if they want. They haven't so far.

Absolutely this.

Does this cause you concern for the safety of your GP? Because it would if it were me. Sounds like a very dangerous care home.

I’m on the fence here.

I’d instinctively swat a hand away too - but then I’d feel bad about it because would you do the same if it had been a child?

So you’re planning to carry on regardless then ? So what was the point of this thread ?

Of course it's unacceptable but it is understandable as a hyper sexuality is often a symptom of dementia

Of course you are not wrong. It shows that men get away with their shit from cradle to grave. Fuck that.

It may not legally be rape, but a person is still being raped! Otherwise, what's happening to them?

Is a person being raped - sorry, not raped - by someone with dementia or another brain issue allowed to use violent physical force to stop them? Or would that be wrong, because it's punishing someone who has no control over their actions?

I get that it feels like an assault to you/ impacts you in the same way. But it's not an assault and if you "hit back" you're punishing someone who has no control over their actions.

So I should just let them assault me? My reflex is to smack someone who assaults me so I am punishing them? Funny how the care home have never seen it that way.

No it's not rape. Yes the person who experiences it will still feel it is. No it's not sexual assault. Yes the person who experiences it will still feel assaulted.
The legal difference is not some abstract concept though. We as a society recognise that people who actually have no control over their actions can't be punished for them. But OP is doing so, which is wrong for the same reason we don't imprison 5 year old who unknowingly hurt others.

But if someone has no control over harmful actions like that, especially if they’re a fully grown adult who with much more physical power than a 5 year old, they shouldn’t be allowed to get into situations where they can harm people.

I agree with this. It seems strange to me that these residents are getting close to the OP so often.