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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think it is acceptable to smack someone if they touch your body, even if they have dementia?

1000 replies

haleey · 25/05/2026 12:38

I visit my grandad in a care home regularly and sometimes male residents will touch women unexpectedly. I’ve had my waist touched, boobs grabbed and one man touched my privates while smiling at me. I know they are ill and confused, but honestly I think people act as though women are supposed to just tolerate it because “they can’t help it”.

Part of this for me is that I have been assaulted before, so my reflex when someone suddenly touches me unexpectedly is to hit out before I even properly think. It is an automatic panic response.

Recently one resident suddenly grabbed me and I instinctively smacked his hand away. One of the staff immediately told me off and said “he can’t help it”. I understand that dementia affects behaviour and judgement, but I found it upsetting that the focus instantly became about him rather than acknowledging that I had just been touched without consent and panicked.

I’m not talking about beating vulnerable elderly people or deliberately hurting confused residents. But I also don’t think women should be expected to quietly accept unwanted touching because the person is elderly or cognitively impaired.

OP posts:
wandawaves · 27/05/2026 09:59

Humblepieman · 27/05/2026 07:00

And God forbid you’d swipe/swat or smack his hand away if a fully grown man is sexually assaulting a woman anyway because we have moved back to the time when women social enforcers (wouldn’t it be great if it actually turned out that they were always only ever a very loud but incredibly vocal minority) strongly enforce via shaming and moralising that it is the duty of women to tolerate “silently” and dutifully any unwanted sexual behaviour she experiences.

This has NOTHING to do with the sex of the people involved. This is about a vulnerable person in their own home, vs a visitor who is of sound mind.

haleey · 27/05/2026 10:07

wandawaves · 27/05/2026 09:57

It's literally in your thread title 🙄

I said all residents at the care home have dementia?

Where?

🙄

OP posts:
haleey · 27/05/2026 10:07

wandawaves · 27/05/2026 09:56

No, I honestly don't understand why someone couldn't take a step back.

Do you understand people have different kinds of PTSD that are not the same as yours?

OP posts:
bellsofnorwich · 27/05/2026 10:09

wandawaves · 27/05/2026 09:57

It's literally in your thread title 🙄

It literally isn't.

ThreadGuardDog · 27/05/2026 10:10

bellsofnorwich · 27/05/2026 08:53

In that case, they should also report the sexual assault of the OP as a visitor to their care home - and they should provide supervision of the residents with wandering hands.

I stepped away from this thread a few days ago because l found many of the comments difficult - I’ve recently lost my mum to vascular dementia.

It popped up again for some reason this morning and I’ve been reading the subsequent comments. There are a few things which stand out. The main one seems to be a complete lack of knowledge surrounding the law protecting the vulnerable.

Firstly, the home have a duty to report the incident to the police. Care homes have a duty of care to protect both their residents and visitors - some on the thread have suggested there is no duty of care to visitors, which is not true. Reporting ensures that the incident is documented, and that the care home reviews the resident's care plan to prevent future incidents.

Secondly, the law provides protection for vulnerable adults and does not hold anyone responsible for their actions if they have lost capacity. So the inappropriate touching and grabbing OP describes would not be treated as would an assault by a person who has capacity - because there is no intent. It’s an action brought about by illness (and in many cases associated medication).

The law does, however, hold those with capacity responsible for their actions in ‘retaliation’. OP has described the fact that she has smacked away the hands of these residents on four separate occasions, and that she intends to continue. Smacking, slapping, swatting - whatever term posters want to use to diminish the impact - is inappropriate and in the eyes of the law can be assault in itself because here there is intent. The correct response is remove the hand, try to remove yourself from the situation and to call for help.

Regarding ‘lock these people away’. That’s also against the law. It’s deprivation of liberty. To even put cot sides on the bed of a dementia patient for their own protection, or to lock a door to prevent them wandering you need a court of protection deprivation of liberty order. You can’t simply lock someone in their room. If these incidents are as frequent and as serious as OP describes then under the social care act, the home have a duty to seek assessment as to whether transfer to a more secure facility is appropriate for the safety of others and the safeguarding of the resident themselves.

Can I also point out to all those who think a swat or a swipe is ‘harmless’ that in many forms of dementia - especially when advanced - pain and fear responses are heightened, and what to you might be a light tap, can cause real pain to a dementia sufferer. The district nurses handling my own mum during home care were very careful when moving her and used specialist equipment to minimise the pain everyday touch could cause. It’s also pointless because you can swat away ad nauseam and it won’t make any difference - there is no capacity to learn. All that will happen is that the person will perceive that they have been punished and they will have no idea why.

The degree to which dementia is misunderstood here is saddening. There seems to be a desire to apportion blame simply because these are men - so the assumption is that they ‘know what they’re doing’ or must have been a ‘perv’ in earlier life seems to be the prevailing opinion. That grown, intelligent women can perpetrate this kind of ignorance is quite shocking. Sexual disinhibition is a common factor in dementia and can be very prevalent in certain types of the disease - applying equally to women and manifesting in various ways. It absolutely does not come from a place of intent. It’s the result of a devastating disease destroying various areas of the brain, responsible for different functions and behaviours. This is a fact that seems to have been lost throughout this thread and anyone having the temerity to suggest it has been shouted down.

This is one of the worst threads I’ve seen on MN, and I’m actually surprised it’s still standing given the ableist content. I have no idea why OP posted, because she doesn’t seem to want to take any responsibility for her own actions - citing it as a ‘reflex’ trauma response because of PTSD, and demanding mitigation, while at the same time being incapable of understanding or tolerant of other similar and infinitely more severe vulnerabilities. She seems to be intent on continuing to bat her way through the residents, regardless of the consequences. Rarely have I seen such lack of self awareness, entitlement and lack of regard for others, including rude and insulting responses to anyone who dares question her actions.

I agree with a pp who says that this thread is a perfect example as to why care work should not be seen as unskilled and suitable for anyone to take up. There are some commenters here who shouldn’t be within a mile of a vulnerable person, and I sincerely hope that they or their loved ones never have to suffer the indignities and the ignorant attitudes that come with a dementia diagnosis. Thankfully this thread is nearly over, so I’ll leave you all to continue your bunfight.

bellsofnorwich · 27/05/2026 10:16

Not sure why you felt the need to write an essay/general rant about the entire thread in response to my brief post. If the subject is so distressing for you, hide the thread. Please don't blame me for your own return to the thread.

Meanwhile, minimising PTSD, and sexual assault - regardless of the perpetrator - and acting as if the OP, who is visiting her grandfather after all, should have no boundaries because you lost your mother to dementia is an odd grief response and has involved a lot of assumptions and projection.

ThreadGuardDog · 27/05/2026 10:23

bellsofnorwich · 27/05/2026 10:16

Not sure why you felt the need to write an essay/general rant about the entire thread in response to my brief post. If the subject is so distressing for you, hide the thread. Please don't blame me for your own return to the thread.

Meanwhile, minimising PTSD, and sexual assault - regardless of the perpetrator - and acting as if the OP, who is visiting her grandfather after all, should have no boundaries because you lost your mother to dementia is an odd grief response and has involved a lot of assumptions and projection.

Where did I blame you for my return to the thread. I hid it and it popped up. I tagged your post specifically because it was yet another instance of the misunderstanding regarding the laws protecting the vulnerable. A person with dementia, or who has otherwise lost capacity, cannot be held responsible for their actions. Yes, the care home absolutely should report it to police, along with the fact that she retaliated with force, which would possibly bring charges of assault against OP. She has capacity. The resident does not.

This is not a grief response and there are no assumptions on my part. And I’m certainly not minimising PTSD or any other trauma response. I’m simply suggesting that if OP sees her own vulnerability as mitigation for her response to being touched, then she should at least consider other vulnerabilities at play for the person(s) doing the touching. I realise that this is a difficult subject and there are no simple answers, but the basic premise of it being acceptable to hit out at being touched by someone you have a pretty good idea is not responsible for their actions is just wrong. And the law supports that.

haleey · 27/05/2026 10:24

bellsofnorwich · 27/05/2026 10:16

Not sure why you felt the need to write an essay/general rant about the entire thread in response to my brief post. If the subject is so distressing for you, hide the thread. Please don't blame me for your own return to the thread.

Meanwhile, minimising PTSD, and sexual assault - regardless of the perpetrator - and acting as if the OP, who is visiting her grandfather after all, should have no boundaries because you lost your mother to dementia is an odd grief response and has involved a lot of assumptions and projection.

Agreed 100%

There is no bun fight, just some disagreements which are part of being on a forum.

OP posts:
MissMoneyFairy · 27/05/2026 10:27

Inappropriate behaviour that can cause distress to residents, staff or visitors needs to be riskmassessed and managed, I don't agree with the smacking, it's double standards, residents can't help it, op can't help it. There's never been any mention of anyone caring about a man being touched.

ThreadGuardDog · 27/05/2026 10:36

haleey · 27/05/2026 10:24

Agreed 100%

There is no bun fight, just some disagreements which are part of being on a forum.

In which you have shouted down and insulted pretty much anyone who disagrees with you. I’m not minimising PTSD or any other trauma response. I’m simply questioning why you expect mitigation from lashing out because it’s your vulnerability, while not considering the fact that those doing the inappropriate touching are doing so because of their own vulnerability. In virtually every post you are minimising the fact that these people have no control over their actions and are suffering from devastating brain disease, and advocating that those involuntary actions are worthy of punishment. There are other prescribed ways of dealing with situations like this and each time they are suggested you dismiss them.

TheignT · 27/05/2026 10:42

I wonder how OP would feel if the response to being slapped was to punch her in the face? He might have a trauma response due to PTSD

haleey · 27/05/2026 10:42

ThreadGuardDog · 27/05/2026 10:36

In which you have shouted down and insulted pretty much anyone who disagrees with you. I’m not minimising PTSD or any other trauma response. I’m simply questioning why you expect mitigation from lashing out because it’s your vulnerability, while not considering the fact that those doing the inappropriate touching are doing so because of their own vulnerability. In virtually every post you are minimising the fact that these people have no control over their actions and are suffering from devastating brain disease, and advocating that those involuntary actions are worthy of punishment. There are other prescribed ways of dealing with situations like this and each time they are suggested you dismiss them.

Edited

I have not shouted down or insulted anyone who disagrees with me. People are allowed different opinions.

I have never minimised the fact that these people have no control over their actions and are suffering from devastating brain disease. Neither have I advocated that those involuntary actions are worthy of punishment.

As a pp said if the subject is so distressing for you, hide the thread.

OP posts:
ImMissingMum · 27/05/2026 10:52

ThreadGuardDog · 27/05/2026 10:10

I stepped away from this thread a few days ago because l found many of the comments difficult - I’ve recently lost my mum to vascular dementia.

It popped up again for some reason this morning and I’ve been reading the subsequent comments. There are a few things which stand out. The main one seems to be a complete lack of knowledge surrounding the law protecting the vulnerable.

Firstly, the home have a duty to report the incident to the police. Care homes have a duty of care to protect both their residents and visitors - some on the thread have suggested there is no duty of care to visitors, which is not true. Reporting ensures that the incident is documented, and that the care home reviews the resident's care plan to prevent future incidents.

Secondly, the law provides protection for vulnerable adults and does not hold anyone responsible for their actions if they have lost capacity. So the inappropriate touching and grabbing OP describes would not be treated as would an assault by a person who has capacity - because there is no intent. It’s an action brought about by illness (and in many cases associated medication).

The law does, however, hold those with capacity responsible for their actions in ‘retaliation’. OP has described the fact that she has smacked away the hands of these residents on four separate occasions, and that she intends to continue. Smacking, slapping, swatting - whatever term posters want to use to diminish the impact - is inappropriate and in the eyes of the law can be assault in itself because here there is intent. The correct response is remove the hand, try to remove yourself from the situation and to call for help.

Regarding ‘lock these people away’. That’s also against the law. It’s deprivation of liberty. To even put cot sides on the bed of a dementia patient for their own protection, or to lock a door to prevent them wandering you need a court of protection deprivation of liberty order. You can’t simply lock someone in their room. If these incidents are as frequent and as serious as OP describes then under the social care act, the home have a duty to seek assessment as to whether transfer to a more secure facility is appropriate for the safety of others and the safeguarding of the resident themselves.

Can I also point out to all those who think a swat or a swipe is ‘harmless’ that in many forms of dementia - especially when advanced - pain and fear responses are heightened, and what to you might be a light tap, can cause real pain to a dementia sufferer. The district nurses handling my own mum during home care were very careful when moving her and used specialist equipment to minimise the pain everyday touch could cause. It’s also pointless because you can swat away ad nauseam and it won’t make any difference - there is no capacity to learn. All that will happen is that the person will perceive that they have been punished and they will have no idea why.

The degree to which dementia is misunderstood here is saddening. There seems to be a desire to apportion blame simply because these are men - so the assumption is that they ‘know what they’re doing’ or must have been a ‘perv’ in earlier life seems to be the prevailing opinion. That grown, intelligent women can perpetrate this kind of ignorance is quite shocking. Sexual disinhibition is a common factor in dementia and can be very prevalent in certain types of the disease - applying equally to women and manifesting in various ways. It absolutely does not come from a place of intent. It’s the result of a devastating disease destroying various areas of the brain, responsible for different functions and behaviours. This is a fact that seems to have been lost throughout this thread and anyone having the temerity to suggest it has been shouted down.

This is one of the worst threads I’ve seen on MN, and I’m actually surprised it’s still standing given the ableist content. I have no idea why OP posted, because she doesn’t seem to want to take any responsibility for her own actions - citing it as a ‘reflex’ trauma response because of PTSD, and demanding mitigation, while at the same time being incapable of understanding or tolerant of other similar and infinitely more severe vulnerabilities. She seems to be intent on continuing to bat her way through the residents, regardless of the consequences. Rarely have I seen such lack of self awareness, entitlement and lack of regard for others, including rude and insulting responses to anyone who dares question her actions.

I agree with a pp who says that this thread is a perfect example as to why care work should not be seen as unskilled and suitable for anyone to take up. There are some commenters here who shouldn’t be within a mile of a vulnerable person, and I sincerely hope that they or their loved ones never have to suffer the indignities and the ignorant attitudes that come with a dementia diagnosis. Thankfully this thread is nearly over, so I’ll leave you all to continue your bunfight.

Edited

Hello, I just wanted to quote your comment as I think it's a really important one, and I've been feeling really upset reading this thread as well.

I lost my mum to dementia at the end of last year, and the thought of another visitor lashing out at her when I wasn't there visiting has really upset me. My mum would try and dig her nails into me sometimes, or lash out if she was guided to her seat or made to do anything she perceived as an attack on her person. The nurses (and me and dad), would just gently remove her hands or call over for support. One time she managed to get into an altercation with another dementia resident (they all had dementia in the care home) and the staff filled in an incident report as he'd lashed out at mum first and tried to grab her but she retaliated. They called both us and the family of the man and we agreed on a safeguarding plan to protect them both.

My mum was an amazing person, sarcastic, dry sense of humour, very clever, funny, chatty and a really wonderful mum. Dementia reduced her to a shell of herself and I grieved for her before she died. She was safe in the care home once my dad was no longer able to care for her at home (as she became psychotic and would lash out and refuse all care, he did a brilliant job for about 5 years but it got too much for him, in his late 70s, my mum was older in her 80s).

The thought of her not being safe from someone with capacity and that level of ignorance about dementia and what it does is just so upsetting.

In this case (this thread I mean); the care home are at fault here; they should be safeguarding the vulnerable residents in their care, with a care plan and incident reports and ensuring any visitors with capacity do not hurt them in any way. I am not minimising sexual assault and PTSD as I too have had this happen to me (sexual assault), so I understand the fear the op has and go through this daily with my fight for single sex spaces at my work (a whole other thread in itself). However, the capacity is there, if one of the older male dementia sufferers had done this to me at mum's care home I would have raised it with the care home as a safeguarding issue and ensured it didn't happen again and they would have worked to keep him safe and me. But blaming the man or trying to justify continuing to smack at him after the first issue and the care home doing nothing about it, is really concerning.

haleey · 27/05/2026 11:04

ImMissingMum · 27/05/2026 10:52

Hello, I just wanted to quote your comment as I think it's a really important one, and I've been feeling really upset reading this thread as well.

I lost my mum to dementia at the end of last year, and the thought of another visitor lashing out at her when I wasn't there visiting has really upset me. My mum would try and dig her nails into me sometimes, or lash out if she was guided to her seat or made to do anything she perceived as an attack on her person. The nurses (and me and dad), would just gently remove her hands or call over for support. One time she managed to get into an altercation with another dementia resident (they all had dementia in the care home) and the staff filled in an incident report as he'd lashed out at mum first and tried to grab her but she retaliated. They called both us and the family of the man and we agreed on a safeguarding plan to protect them both.

My mum was an amazing person, sarcastic, dry sense of humour, very clever, funny, chatty and a really wonderful mum. Dementia reduced her to a shell of herself and I grieved for her before she died. She was safe in the care home once my dad was no longer able to care for her at home (as she became psychotic and would lash out and refuse all care, he did a brilliant job for about 5 years but it got too much for him, in his late 70s, my mum was older in her 80s).

The thought of her not being safe from someone with capacity and that level of ignorance about dementia and what it does is just so upsetting.

In this case (this thread I mean); the care home are at fault here; they should be safeguarding the vulnerable residents in their care, with a care plan and incident reports and ensuring any visitors with capacity do not hurt them in any way. I am not minimising sexual assault and PTSD as I too have had this happen to me (sexual assault), so I understand the fear the op has and go through this daily with my fight for single sex spaces at my work (a whole other thread in itself). However, the capacity is there, if one of the older male dementia sufferers had done this to me at mum's care home I would have raised it with the care home as a safeguarding issue and ensured it didn't happen again and they would have worked to keep him safe and me. But blaming the man or trying to justify continuing to smack at him after the first issue and the care home doing nothing about it, is really concerning.

Firstly sorry for your loss. I am very sorry you went through a difficult experience with your mum. Sorry this thread has upset you also.

I am also sorry that you have been sexually assaulted. It is shocking how many women have experienced this.

I agree it is part of a bigger issue. I have brought it up with the managers and care staff. The care home have been reported to the CQC as the measures they brought in were not working sufficiently. I am concerned about the children who visit the home also.

OP posts:
ChalkOutlines · 27/05/2026 11:10

haleey · 27/05/2026 11:04

Firstly sorry for your loss. I am very sorry you went through a difficult experience with your mum. Sorry this thread has upset you also.

I am also sorry that you have been sexually assaulted. It is shocking how many women have experienced this.

I agree it is part of a bigger issue. I have brought it up with the managers and care staff. The care home have been reported to the CQC as the measures they brought in were not working sufficiently. I am concerned about the children who visit the home also.

I think your “mistake” was that you made this all about you and very personal (hence some of the horrible, personal comments you received) rather than a general issue of how chaotic the care home is, the dismissive attitude of staff , the poor safeguarding of residents and visitors (of all ages), etc.
Rather than a systemic issue , it became a you issue and all about how you (rightly or wrongly) deal with it.

haleey · 27/05/2026 11:21

ChalkOutlines · 27/05/2026 11:10

I think your “mistake” was that you made this all about you and very personal (hence some of the horrible, personal comments you received) rather than a general issue of how chaotic the care home is, the dismissive attitude of staff , the poor safeguarding of residents and visitors (of all ages), etc.
Rather than a systemic issue , it became a you issue and all about how you (rightly or wrongly) deal with it.

It it was an all about me issue, I would not have highlighted my concerns to the staff, managers and reported the care hone to the CQC. I have also mentioned several times concern for the children who visit.

OP posts:
ThreadGuardDog · 27/05/2026 11:24

haleey · 27/05/2026 10:42

I have not shouted down or insulted anyone who disagrees with me. People are allowed different opinions.

I have never minimised the fact that these people have no control over their actions and are suffering from devastating brain disease. Neither have I advocated that those involuntary actions are worthy of punishment.

As a pp said if the subject is so distressing for you, hide the thread.

You made it about you, instead of the fact that it is altogether a failing of the care home. There are procedures in place for safeguarding and relatives should be made aware of procedures for the kinds of incidents you have described. You asked the question was it acceptable to smack the hands of dementia patients away and then proceeded to dismiss the opinions of those who told you it was wholly unacceptable and their reasons, using sarcasm and laughing emojis (two of them directed at me for simply expressing an opinion and citing the law) and you’ve also been deleted for breaking talk rules. You refused to accept suggestions that there were procedures in place for reporting and plenty of other alternatives to using physical responses, and seem oblivious to the fact that in law it’s you doing the assaulting because you have capacity and reasoning, the residents with dementia do not.

The fact that you expressed an intent to carry on smacking away at these residents pretty much is minimising their lack of control over their actions because you’re not meeting that with any kind of measured response, citing PTSD as a reason but not making any such allowances for the vulnerabilities of the residents.

ChalkOutlines · 27/05/2026 11:25

haleey · 27/05/2026 11:21

It it was an all about me issue, I would not have highlighted my concerns to the staff, managers and reported the care hone to the CQC. I have also mentioned several times concern for the children who visit.

I know, however , a lot of people only read the OP or they take a stance based on it and refuse to acknowledge anything that goes after, because once you’re in the wrong , you must stay there, no matter how reasonable your concerns actually are.

Welcome to Mumsnet.Grin

ThreadGuardDog · 27/05/2026 11:26

haleey · 27/05/2026 11:21

It it was an all about me issue, I would not have highlighted my concerns to the staff, managers and reported the care hone to the CQC. I have also mentioned several times concern for the children who visit.

You didn’t disclose until well into the thread that you had reported to the CQC - you responded several times that it was your intention to keep on smacking the people. And that was what elicited a lot of the responses.

ThreadGuardDog · 27/05/2026 11:27

ChalkOutlines · 27/05/2026 11:25

I know, however , a lot of people only read the OP or they take a stance based on it and refuse to acknowledge anything that goes after, because once you’re in the wrong , you must stay there, no matter how reasonable your concerns actually are.

Welcome to Mumsnet.Grin

Have you read the OP’s subsequent posts ? I questioned several times why she even started the thread because her responses pretty much dismissed the opinions of everyone except those posting in support.

WhatNoRaisins · 27/05/2026 11:28

ChalkOutlines · 27/05/2026 11:25

I know, however , a lot of people only read the OP or they take a stance based on it and refuse to acknowledge anything that goes after, because once you’re in the wrong , you must stay there, no matter how reasonable your concerns actually are.

Welcome to Mumsnet.Grin

I wish there was a way to filter out the replies that have just read the first post. It's just a load of hot air when people do that.

ThreadGuardDog · 27/05/2026 11:32

WhatNoRaisins · 27/05/2026 11:28

I wish there was a way to filter out the replies that have just read the first post. It's just a load of hot air when people do that.

But again, given the nature of OP’s subsequent responses in updates, what is there to change the minds of those disagreeing with the first post ? The more posters challenged her, the more she effectively doubled down and insisted she was right. I had the distinct impression that OP thought her actions perfectly reasonable and it came as a shock that anyone would disagree.

WhatNoRaisins · 27/05/2026 11:34

It would stop all that report to the CQC/cancel the cheque stuff though.

ThreadGuardDog · 27/05/2026 11:37

haleey · 26/05/2026 16:02

As @BIossomtoes said:

If they’re known to behave inappropriately visitors are perfectly able to keep out of their way.

Bloody hell I missed this. Isn’t this the crux of your argument ?

WhatNoRaisins · 27/05/2026 11:39

I'm guessing there's also issues of confidentiality. Would the home be allowed to warn a visitor let's say that "sometimes Mr Smith over there just walks over and tries to put his hand down your shirt"? I expect that they can't.

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