to think it is acceptable to smack someone if they touch your body, even if they have dementia?

[haleey]

I visit my grandad in a care home regularly and sometimes male residents will touch women unexpectedly. I’ve had my waist touched, boobs grabbed and one man touched my privates while smiling at me. I know they are ill and confused, but honestly I think people act as though women are supposed to just tolerate it because “they can’t help it”.

Part of this for me is that I have been assaulted before, so my reflex when someone suddenly touches me unexpectedly is to hit out before I even properly think. It is an automatic panic response.

Recently one resident suddenly grabbed me and I instinctively smacked his hand away. One of the staff immediately told me off and said “he can’t help it”. I understand that dementia affects behaviour and judgement, but I found it upsetting that the focus instantly became about him rather than acknowledging that I had just been touched without consent and panicked.

I’m not talking about beating vulnerable elderly people or deliberately hurting confused residents. But I also don’t think women should be expected to quietly accept unwanted touching because the person is elderly or cognitively impaired.

But he's only being isolated during the visit with his relative. That's quite commonplace in a lot of care settings where other residents/patients pose a risk.

If people are visiting all day every day how is it fair that the man with wandering hands as you put it is locked up and isolated all day everyday. If he was a criminal that is fair enough but he lacks capacity and is therefore a vulnerable adult. Practice will be the least restrictive on the individual, which is to let them move freely around their home. That said, the care home definitely needs to manage the risk that poses to others including visitors. This doesn't seem to be managed well at all here but the man who has no capacity should not be locked up.

“It’s natural to …” is such a shite excuse because that’s what men have alleged about their sexual nature for fucking millenniums. It’s natural to shit - but we’ve learned to control ourselves.

Why did the school not stop the visits. I would have liked to read the risk assessment that decided that was ok.

In England and in NI it isn’t.

Yes because shitting and a reflex to hit out because of PTSD from a sexual assault are the same.

Is that not appalling?

Watch those who hit their childs hand out of the way of the stove to stop them from getting burned. It is an assault regardless of high the stove is and where the rings are.

A slap isn't a punch. For a slap to hurt you've got to really get some momentum going in your arm. Which is highly unlikely in this case as the elderly man was touching the OP. Plus if the slap was on the arm, it was probably through clothes which would also reduce the impact. So on a practical level it was highly unlikely to have hurt the man. And I'm sure it wasn't intended to hurt, just make them pull away instead of carrying on.

No, not if it’s interpreted in the absolutist way some on this thread are.

A parent shouldn’t be criminalised for lightly tapping their child’s hand as it’s about to touch a hot hob. Is it idealised parenting, perhaps not, but criminal? That’s ridiculous.

I wouldn’t have an issue with banning premeditated smacking of children as a punishment, but the idea that any and all “kinetic” contact between parent and child, irrespective of the power used or circumstance, is a criminal act is too far in my opinion.

Doesn’t matter where I am, or what home I’m in. I have a right not to be sexually assaulted… can’t believe this needs saying!

It’s not assault if you react in self-defence and use “reasonable force”.

Legally, “reasonable force” is not the “the mildest conceivable level of force that someone could have used to stop the sexual assault, with this level being assessed retrospectively, examining the actions of those involved and calibrating the response precisely to minimise any possible unnecessary discomfort”.

To argue that a light tap on the arm to attempt to stop a sexual assault should be regarded as criminal behaviour and “assault” is preposterous.

People keep saying it is THEIR home. Yes a home that anybody who wants to visit any of the other residents can! Each individual resident has no say about who can visit someone else in THEIR home.

OP has never said her gf has dementia. He just prefers to be in the communal areas rather than his room, apparently even if that means his granddaughter being sexually assaulted on 4 occasions and other residents being physically assaulted.

He should be allowed to see his visitors wherever he likes, except those visitors who pose a predictable risk of physically assaulting disabled people. Presume there's only one of them.

Yes. It would be better if everyone lived in private homes. But some people are too unwell to live alone. So they live in shared medical facilities which I'm sure is not where they wanted to live out their final days, spending their life's earnings on some shitty accommodation and carers who change every ten nights.

The reason the men you have "smacked" have no ability to stop you coming in their home is that they have lost their independence as well as their minds.

You're wrong about the "light tap" which you seem to have made up to make yourself feel better.

But in any event my point was a different one. OP thinks she was assaulted (despite the person doing the act has no capacity aka did not "choose" to do it) but refuses to accept that the same logic means she is committing assault. She says she didn't choose to do it, she is relying on her mental impairment as justification but ignoring theirs.

Once again I did not state the locations of the assaults.

You seem determined to make things up.

When people asked why you don't go into his room instead you said its because he prefers the communal area.
You didn't say that it's because people are coming into his room (doesn't he have a door?) and touching you, four times.

Do you work in the home? There are plenty in my grandads home who have not lost their minds. Those who have not lost their minds have no right to stop visitors for other residents in THEIR home because it is not a home that belongs to THEM.

You seem determined to make things up.

That does not disclose where the assaults took place but carry on making things up.

So we need to do a mental capability assessment before deciding how to react to a man groping us?

Anyone would think the OP shot the man, not gave a mild slap that led a moment of trivial discomfort.

I don't think YABU.
I think some people are reading your posts and thinking you are removing yourself from the situation, then smacking the person in retaliation.
I have read your reaction to be swatting their hands away to get them off you. Not hitting them.

That's both untrue, and even if it were, I sincerely doubt that a parent would be prosecuted for instinctively slapping their child's hand away from a hot stove. You're being ridiculous.

I also find it curious that many people are saying men with dementia that are touchy feely were like that before they became ill.
My gran was a carer all her life, and when she became unwell with vascular dementia, she turned really violent towards other women. She changed care homes twice as they could not meet her needs. In her early 80s, she had another resident on the floor and was hitting her.

Yes, fair enough! It seems she has reported her concerns, and equally while she hasn't said, I get the impression that her grandfather has mental capacity to say if he's unhappy there, and if he was then I imagine she would have said that. Additionally, it's quite likely that as an elderly man, he is not a recipient of any assaults.

If anyone grabbed or touched me unexpectedly I would probably hit out. I definitely would if it was my breasts or more private areas.

I honestly don't care if a person is non compos-mentis or not. The exception would be a small child, but honestly, I couldn't 100% guarantee I wouldn't reflexively push or smack a small child's hand away either. As you say OP, it's reflexive, like pulling your hand away from fire.