AIBU to expect boys in ladies' changing rooms not to stare?

[MoreNewThings]

I’m prepared to be told I’m over-reacting, unreasonable, etc.

Should mothers who bring their sons into a female changing room teach their boys not to stare at the women in there?

Scenario is a small-ish sports centre. There’s one changing room per sex, for all sports except swimming. One mother is there every week with two boys, helping them get changed for their sport. The younger one looks about 7, so probably needs the help. The older boy is about 9 or 10, and doesn’t need help. I get why she brings him in to the ladies. But he stares at the two adult women who are usually getting changed at the same time. I find it disconcerting, even though he’s only a kid. There are often little girls there too after their class, but it’s just the adult women he seems to stare at.

Today it was just the older boy there, but she still brought him into the female room even though he didn’t need help. The other woman tried to go slightly round the corner, and he shifted around so he could still see her. Mother was on her phone and oblivious.

Then another boy about 8 came in, with mother and sisters. He just sat and stared at me the whole time. I was pissed off by this point and gave him my evil glare but he kept staring.

I’m not sure why it makes me uncomfortable as they are only kids, but they are male kids having a good ogle at the adult female form, and no-one seems to be explaining that staring is rude. Or that as males in a female space they should be as unobtrusive as possible.

So the AIBU is, should the mothers teach the boys not to ogle women? In addition, should I speak to the mothers? And what would I say?

YABU - get over yourself, they’re just kids.

YANBU - yes, the mothers should be teaching their sons to respect women’s boundaries.

@jeaux90 What is your point? You keep making this and yes we know men commit the vast majority of sexual assaults

Then why disagree with me that a woman walking around naked in a changing room and a man walking around naked in a changing room are two different things?

But is it fair that for example 9 year old girls that he may go to school with are then having to be naked in front of him, in a women only space?

I think you either have to take him home to change or only swim where there’s family changing rooms.

The cut off is 7 at my gym and there is a family changing room. In any case how mothers of older boys sort out what they see as their child's needs isn't my issue. Just don't bring your child into spaces they shouldn't be in.

All these posters saying it is ok for a mother to bring an 10 year old boy into the female changing room, would you be ok with a dad taking a 10 year old girl into the male changing room, and if not, why not? It seems the issue is men, and people not feeling boys are safe around men. Why are men not dealing with the fact that they as a class have problematic members?

There should be a disability provision.

If this “isn’t your issue to fix”, why are you banging on about how boys shouldn’t be in men’s changing rooms? How is THAT your issue to fix, if you don’t have children? So bloody tired of men happily giving away women’s rights to privacy and dignity when they have no skin in the game themselves.

Exactly. You’d think men as a class would feel shame that children are not deemed safe around them, and mothers would rather those boys made women abd girls uncomfortable than trust boys in male spaces. So it is up to men to change this and redeem themselves.

Far too old for a boy to be in a ladies changing area.

Talk to the management.

Thank god we have a childless man here to lecture us, who has zero experience with any of the issues here but feels he knows better.

You just called men walking about naked in front of kids as a pervert. So why doesnt the same apply to women?
And by the way 90% of sexual assaults take place in mixed gender / family changing rooms

It’s the mansplaining thing innit? I feel a lot of men like coming onto Mumsnet to “educate the little women”. Probably because everyone in real life tells them to bore off.

But that might be never. Humans are of course stronger, bigger, faster than each other. Demand family or individual locked changing - forcing girls to change with boys in their space isn’t the answer.

Ive sent my 9 year old in the gents for this past year. He's too old to be in the ladies!

@intrepidpanda You just called men walking about naked in front of kids as a pervert. So why doesnt the same apply to women?

See previous post.

What are the statistics for sexual assault of children by women?
How do those statistics compare to those for sexual assault of children by men?

@stardrops1 So bloody tired of men happily giving away women’s rights to privacy and dignity

See previous post.

"I'm not saying that boys should automatically be allowed in women's changing rooms."

Whatever the statistics, boys have no right to be in female single sex spaces. They just don’t. It affects the safety, wellbeing and safeguarding of the women and girls to whom that space rightfully belongs.

If person x lives in a relatively unsafe part of town, that does not give them the right to march into person y’s home in a safer part of town and demand to live there. Equally, if the male changing room is unsafe for males, they have no right to march into the female space instead.

What exactly ARE you saying then?! You’ve posted a whole lot of messages but not said anything useful.

I think age 7+ they shouldn't be in the opposite sex changing room.
I sometimes have to take my 3 year old ds with me to my daughter's swimming lessons, and I make him sit with his headphones on engrossed with his tablet so that the girls don't worry that there's a boy in the room. Even though he's 3 . You can tell when the girls don't like having boys in there.

Could you have a word with the mother? Although, from the sound of it, she’d not be receptive …

yes, I already said upfront that this happened quite regularly at the DL I/my father went to. My late father was very sensitive to this as he had been SA as a child. He said that parents would leave the child (girl or boy 7 plus) alone in the changing rooms while they went to shower, out of sight, too. He complained many times about this but DL are not known for being responsive to feedback! My dad would end up dressing hastily and leaving the changing room without showering to avoid situations where he would be alone with a child. It upset and bothered him a lot that he could be accused plus the girl was at
risk… I could never fathom what these fathers were thinking taking a 10 year old girl in with them.

ive found that the posher the club the less likely to have either cubicles or family changing. also, without wishing to politically derail, Reform are campaigning against family changing in council leisure centres. Unfortunately, the figure quoted upthread on number of assaults/ voyeurism compared to single sex changing is broadly correct (I checked as it is Reform we are talking about); family changing is associated with a higher number of incidents. Removing family changing then creates problems for families though. I’m a bit torn on this one though I don’t buy Reforms concern for women; more like an opportunity to shit stir. The ideal
is male, female AND mixed but there are few facilities with space and per swim session (eg aqua aerobics, inflatables etc), the figures
dont nearly divide like that so splitting facilities may mean there aren’t enough.

as for the people claiming their kids arrive and leave clothed, I’m puzzled as the most common activity for kids by a wide margin is swim. You can arrive with your costume on underneath but you can’t exactly exit the pool and pop straight home dripping.

Oodie, or one of those towelling beach coveralls, or a loose set of jogging bottoms / sweatshirt are the kind of ‘good enough’ instant dressing combos that work ok for boys from swimming. Then straight into the shower at home.

18%

glad that worked for you. I’m not advocating a full grooming routine for kids, I was always happy to skip the shower. You still need to remove the wet costume and have some
sort of perfunctory wipe down though so you still need somewhere to do this. Showering at home and loose clothing just reduces the time spent and doesn’t excluding the step, and need for space, completely. An oodie and wet costume doesn’t really cut it on the bus or on a walk home either.

I agree it’s not perfect.

But when there a concern about safety in the male changing room, and where it is obviously wrong to use the female-only ones, then (while also working with centre staff to find a long term solution) it may have to be ‘good enough’.

When my kids were small, they each had oversized towelling hoodies for swimming, which came to their knees. They’d get dressed poolside/on the beach.

Arrive at swimming wearing costume as underwear. Remove outer layers.

After the swim, hoody on over wet costume. Being towelling, it absorbs much of the water on the skin.

If wearing a girl’s costume, slip straps off shoulders then step out of it. If wearing trunks, even easier. Pull on clean dry pants. Add tracksuit bottoms. Remove hoody, put on tshirt (if a girl who was too old to be briefly topless in public view, wrap a smaller towel round upper body first under the hoody).

Unless you’re then walking them home through a blizzard, this works absolutely fine.

Obviously, it’s better or at least easier if there’s both a single sex facility & a same sex supervising adult to accompany the child, or a big unisex family cubicle. But it really shouldn’t be beyond the wit of a parent to get a young kid of either sex changed quickly & decently poolside if there isn’t a changing area they are willing for the child to use (unless anyone has additional needs, in which case they can use the disabled facilities).

Ultimately, you just don’t have the right to barge yourself or your over 8yo child into opposite sex changing facilities. The onus is on the parent to find a solution they can live with, not ignore everyone else’s established right to single sex facilities.