AIBU to expect boys in ladies' changing rooms not to stare?

[MoreNewThings]

I’m prepared to be told I’m over-reacting, unreasonable, etc.

Should mothers who bring their sons into a female changing room teach their boys not to stare at the women in there?

Scenario is a small-ish sports centre. There’s one changing room per sex, for all sports except swimming. One mother is there every week with two boys, helping them get changed for their sport. The younger one looks about 7, so probably needs the help. The older boy is about 9 or 10, and doesn’t need help. I get why she brings him in to the ladies. But he stares at the two adult women who are usually getting changed at the same time. I find it disconcerting, even though he’s only a kid. There are often little girls there too after their class, but it’s just the adult women he seems to stare at.

Today it was just the older boy there, but she still brought him into the female room even though he didn’t need help. The other woman tried to go slightly round the corner, and he shifted around so he could still see her. Mother was on her phone and oblivious.

Then another boy about 8 came in, with mother and sisters. He just sat and stared at me the whole time. I was pissed off by this point and gave him my evil glare but he kept staring.

I’m not sure why it makes me uncomfortable as they are only kids, but they are male kids having a good ogle at the adult female form, and no-one seems to be explaining that staring is rude. Or that as males in a female space they should be as unobtrusive as possible.

So the AIBU is, should the mothers teach the boys not to ogle women? In addition, should I speak to the mothers? And what would I say?

YABU - get over yourself, they’re just kids.

YANBU - yes, the mothers should be teaching their sons to respect women’s boundaries.

My 3/4 yo GS could get himself totally ready, including shoes, as he was the youngest and had sisters who would call him a baby if he couldn't! Also he wanted to be a grown up in the men's toilets. A bit of competition is good for all.

9 or 10 is too old to be in the ladies. If you can't face asking her yourself ask the sports centre to enforce the rule.

@mindutopia weird language in your post, quite deranged and degrading actually, and no a lot of changing rooms only have open changing with the odd cubicle so it’s completely normal at my gym for women to be in a state of undress which is why we keep males over 9 out. (Cis men, FFS brain rot right there)

@shuggles women and girls are not a human shield. If your local facility does not offer family changing spaces it’s not an excuse for a boy over 9 to be in the female spaces. It’s called safeguarding.

An obvious point here is that female changing rooms also serve female children.

No mid primary-age girl should be required to change in the presence of her male peers.

No female should ever have to give up their own right to privacy and safeguarding to meet the wants of male children or the parents of male children.

Campaign for male changing room safety and / or family changing rooms. Do not abuse female spaces.

Because leisure centres have changing rooms, I had to go in them a lot and as colleagues we discussed stuff like this - so if it ever happened (very rare) it was the talk of the staff room. When it did happen, it was was either people with learning difficulties, dementia or foreigners.

When you say ‘walking around naked’ do you mean with or without a towel? if wrapped in a towel, I am not classing that as naked. If you consider walking from the shower to the changing area wrapped in a towel to be ‘walking around naked’ then, yes, virtually everyone does that.

There are work-arounds - many outlined on this thread - that mean boys can walk pretty much straight through male changing rooms. Arrive changed; leave without changing; have an easily-removed top layer (Oodie / onesie / hoody / tracksuit + sliders or flipflops) that takes seconds to take off and replace. Or go in with a friend.

@dizzydizzydizzy Because leisure centres have changing rooms, I had to go in them a lot and as colleagues we discussed stuff like this

I'm very surprised that you went into the men's changing rooms frequently, but never saw any men walking around naked.

When you say ‘walking around naked’ do you mean with or without a towel? if wrapped in a towel

"walking around naked" means walking around without a towel.

I am not classing that as naked.

It's not a case of your "classifications." Naked means naked. Someone who covers themselves with a towel is not naked by definition.

@jeaux90 @cantkeepawayforever I'm not saying that boys should automatically be allowed in women's changing rooms.

I'm only saying that sending boys into the men's changing rooms is not a good idea... because there are men there, obviously.

I get why she doesn’t want a young boy unsupervised in the men’s changing room and the gym should address this by having more family cubicles.
His mother shouldn’t be on her phone either, everything is a camera phone these days and she no business having a camera in a changing room.
Personally I would address this by looking the kid right in the face and telling him loudly “It’s rude to stare at people”.

Of course they are gonna stare. They will be starting to go through puberty and be taking a interest in female anatomy.
Mothers of these boys often are blind to this and still see them as their little baby.

According to my DH, the changing rooms he uses at the gym are full of men wandering around stark naked, and I don't mean wearing a towel.

At what point do you regard it as appropriate for male children / young people to enter the changing room designated for males?

And what do you feel parents of make children should be campaigning for - family rooms / more supervision? Because the solution MUST not be male children using female spaces

And what’s your solution? Because if it’s a man problem then why don’t men fix it? Women and girls are not human shields or support humans. What do you suggest happens?

Why dont you want them in a changing room where an old man is walking about naked but happy for them to be in a changing room where an old woman is walking about naked. How do you know I'm not a pervert?

The situation in the OP is particularly clear-cut - there are 2 male siblings. They accompany one another into the male changing rooms OR they adopt one of the work-arounds then sit together in a communal area near staff, waiting for their mum.

‘Will you stop staring?’

Just say that. Or go into a stall

I do dry sports but am sweaty afterwards so yes ALL clothes come off. I shower then I am fully naked again while I moisturise and let it dry
I refuse to use a cubicle to hide myself. I am doing nothing wrong

@intrepidpanda Why dont you want them in a changing room where an old man is walking about naked but happy for them to be in a changing room where an old woman is walking about naked. How do you know I'm not a pervert?

What are the statistics for sexual assault of children by women?

How do those statistics compare to those for sexual assault of children by men?

@jeaux90 What do you suggest happens?

I don't have children, so it's not my issue to fix.

I think these boys are too old to be in the female changing and should be in the male changing room.

I get that it’s hard to start that when you son is young, but I always thought most places had a cut off of about 7/8 yrs old? So yes the 7 yo who still needs help I think is ok, but the older ones (who are the ones doing the staring) should defo been in the male changing.

All kids should be taught not to stare at people changing though, definitely.

None of that is relevant to the fact that boys, unless very young, have no place in a female changing room. How that's addressed isn't for us the women and girls to address.

That is not the job of all women and girls in the changing rooms to solve.

The women and girls have the right to a single sex space, and have the right to enforce it. The boys and their parents do NOT have the right to invade these spaces.

What is your point? You keep making this and yes we know men commit the vast majority of sexual assaults 98% according to the ONS but the answer is safeguarding women and girls, not chucking male children over 9 in with them. Campaign for family changing rooms, again, women and girls are not human shields!

@cantkeepawayforever At what point do you regard it as appropriate for male children / young people to enter the changing room designated for males?

Hard to say. Unaccompanied or not with friends... the age would be an age at which they are able to get away from an attacker.

Ideally some sort of unisex changing with cubicles that parents can take their opposite child into is helpful though, where possible.