Is a St George cross an underlying sign of passive racism?

[ThatCyanJoker]

Walked past the house of a relatively new friend today and was surprised to see they’ve put up a huge flagpole, complete with St George cross flag flying high. I am generally patriotic , and put out the bunting for notable occasions without a second thought. I would probably be pleased had it been a Union Jack, but the St George has an undertone of racism to me, unless it’s flown for the football World Cup or something.
AIBU to reconsider friendship?

The flag itself is not racist but sadly used by many to make racist points. So whilst a person's intention is unknown as to why they might have a flag up it is equally understandable that people feel apprehensive when they see it.

Agree

Some industrial scale generalisation, unevidenced accusations and righteous sneering against whole swathes of the population here.

There are a variety of reasons for them being put up. Sporting events, national pride etc Some are a protest against the government’s failure to control our borders. That is not racist.

There may be some racists among the group - they are in many groups - the Labour Party and Green Party for example have a particular issue with racist members.

Even Keir Starmer is accusing people of being ‘plastic patriots’ - a grim reference to The Troubles in Ireland. Instead of listening to genuine public concern and securing our borders, he is attacking his own citizens.

To attempt to smear everyone who puts up an English flag as racist is divisive and just serves to inflame the tensions we are currently experiencing.

I'm a foreigner so feel free to ignore. But to me, if you have your flag on a flagpole and it is being flown "correctly" and with respect to the fla, I don't really think that has racist meaning. But when someone ties a a flag half way up a lamp posts with zip ties, that is sending a message.

Not in many countries though right? There are 195 of them. And living in a country makes if difficult to understand cultural context- none of my friends born and brought up elsewhere would understand (or care about) the history of England flag and facism

But the majority of people don't go marching through towns wearing the England flag and chanting racist slogans.

Same with flags on lamp posts. So why assume that a person displaying a flag in their garden is racist, that says more about you and the way that you think.

For those concerned that our borders need control, can I ask how this can be achieved when Brexit took away the most effective way to triage those wishing to come to the UK? How would someone fleeing Iran, or Syria, for example, home bombed, personal belongings under the rubble - how would they claim asylum in the UK?

And how does flying a flag say ‘control our borders’ - against what? Our border points are the same as other countries, passport control etc. What’s wrong with those?

Yes, but I think it's really weak-minded to give in to these nasty people.

Let's not let them win. If you start to think that your country's flag is evil because some jerks have adopted it, you're giving in to them.

I used to go around tearing down NF posters and stickers when I was a student (they 'adopted' the Union flag). Luckily that's been rehabilitated, but we shouldn't give in to people who try to take away our cultural symbols and use them for their horrible ends.

One thing would be for people to stop looking for these things - just ignore the offensively-deployed flags and keep on using the flag for its proper purpose: celebration, ceremony and national pride, as other nations do.

Racist how?

Why is it vile to think something is racist?

The posters who are saying anyone who flies a St Georges Cross must be racist are such arrogant and self righteous bellends people.

Has the flag of England been used heavily by right-wing groups who are racist? YES, there is no debating that it is absolutely true and it is awful that it has done so.

Does that mean that no one is allowed to celebrate their countries flag without supporting those groups? NO absolutely not. People are allowed to be patriotic and proud of their country without being racist, hell one of the things to be proud of is how welcoming and multiracial this country is (there is work to be done but compared to the majority of the world we are doing well).

So to assume anyone who flies the flag is racist makes you look like a twat.

Would you assume everyone who drives a Mercedes is a Nazi? Hitler drove a Merc therefore all Merc drivers are Nazis?

Labour are red, anyone who wears a red tie at any point in their life must be a labour supporter?

Madness.

That's a strange question...obviously it depends what it is you think is racist, doesn't it?

If I see a St G's flag, I don't necessarily think it's racist. There would have to be corroborating evidence to support that claim.

I don't like knee-jerk judgements or bandwagon opinions.

I was once accused of racism because I said I liked 'traditional stories and folk tales' by a very dim Dave Spart character (Private Eye's resident Trotyskyist) who thought 'traditional' was a dirty word.

It’s vile to ASSUME that someone is racist because they choose to put a flag in their garden. Out their window. On their garden gnome. Assuming that someone is a bigot is bigotry in itself!

No one should ever buy a Volkswagen either eh? My mum drives a Polo, she must be a Nazi! It’s so funny how people think they are being right on but are actually contributing to the problem. All this sneering ‘you’re faux naive wide eyed innocents’ pass agg nonsense. WE KNOW that the flag has been appropriated, by SOME. It doesn’t mean we’re stupid enough to buy into it. As I say, the union flag was co-opted by arseholes for the best part of nearly three decades and now nanas use it for garden party bunting! I don’t like that flag but that’s a whole other issue being Welsh. I’d love to come back to this thread in a decade when the flag has been ‘renewed’ as non-racist and see some of the people on here backtrack. Which they won’t because some blinkers are for life.

Oh and calling the use of a flag racist doesn’t make you not racist. I lived in Tower Hamlets for a decade, when England played football my non-English neighbours put the flag up to celebrate their new home and the headiness of supporting a national team doing well. They were racist too I guess? Against themselves? They had more sense than a lot of people on this thread.

Apprehensive is one thing. Assuming racism is entirely another.

I agree to a degree.
I think the flag has been co-opted by the far right and manifestly racist - players like Lennon(Robinson), Currien(Saxon), Gurnarit Singh. Many/most have documented racist views and have served prison time for their part on race motivated murders.
I think arguments that they are making and ‘Operation Raise the Colours’ tactics of flags on lamposts etc is racist at its heart. To refute this is to align with them or maybe choose to ignore who they actually are and what they stand for (which is well documented).

Of course not everyone who flies the flag does follow them I wouldn’t make that argument at all. But many do sadly, particularly at the minute, and like the fascists of old there is a lot of manipulation at the heart of it which I think we should call out.

Who said we shouldn't call it out? Who has refuted that Raise the Colours is awful? I said it myself upthread last night! Read back! No one has said that we need to blithely be unaware of flags being coopted for disgusting views.

What people have said is that thinking displaying a flag is not intrinsically racist. Because it isn't. And that is what the OP asked isn't it?

And as I have said before - there are far worse things that racists do than flying flags and those are the things to be outraged by.

So what would you be apprehensive about?

Not trying to have a fight with you.
I find the murderous and violent tactics of Lennon and his goons obviously disgusting which is why I mentioned it, alongside their manipulation of jingoism and flag flying.

I wouldn't.

Absolutely this.

It's a bit like the rabid atheists who make their atheism just as dogmatic and nasty as fundamentalist religious people (I'm an atheist, btw, but have no time for the really dogmatic ones).

Who said we were fighting? We're both expressing opinions aren't we? It's not a fight, it's a discussion. It's also not my flag!

Are you suggesting that I don't find those things abhorrent just because I don't automatically think that someone with a St George's flag is racist? I do find those things abhorrent but I am able to separate out racist actions from non-racist actions. Flying a flag is not inherently racist.

Totally agree.

No I am suggesting nothing about you in my response.