to think a lot of men don’t actually want children as much as they say they do?

[olaay]

I don’t mean all men, before anyone jumps on that. But it does feel like quite a few are very into the idea of kids rather than the reality.

They’ll talk about wanting a family, being a dad, all of that. On paper they’re completely on board. But when it comes down to what having children actually involves, it often feels like the woman is the one really carrying it, not just physically but in every other way too.

You see it in how the conversations go. Women thinking it through properly, what it means for their body, their job, their day to day life. Men sort of agreeing, going along with it, but not always engaging with the full picture in the same way.

Then once the baby arrives, it turns into this dynamic where he “helps” rather than just being an equal parent. Like it’s still ultimately her responsibility and he steps in when needed.

It just makes me wonder how many men genuinely want children in a proper, day to day, all in way, and how many just like the idea of it without really thinking about what it looks like long term.

I don’t think either sex can really know what it’s like day-to-day until they actually do it and many struggle with it.

But I do think men in general are less suited to the grind of raising children, particularly when they’re young. I just don’t think it comes as naturally to men as it does to women.

Yes, I know there are exceptions but we are talking in general terms here.

I only see this type of attitude on this site. All my friends share parenting equally and I have noticed the same at school. Today a lot of us finished work early and picked the children up at the usual time and went to the park - complete mix of men and women. There are a few parties tomorrow and the parents are sharing the load.

If I’m honest, I’d say my husband does put a lot more effort into childcare than me.

I disagree. I think women do it because they have to. Women’s jobs are paid less so a lot give them up. There is no fall back as it’s socially unacceptable for women to give up and leave. It’s not as socially unacceptable for men to give up. It’s not biology, it’s societal expectations and generations of brainwashing.

Yep. They like the idea of it and the status but ultimately everything has to serve what they want so if it’s not working for them they’re off.
I may be jaded but we are here to give our opinions based on our experiences and that’s mine.
I do have men in my life who are wonderful fathers. Minority though.

It’s not just an “attitude” floating around on Mumsnet. It’s the lived experience of many women, myself included. The idea of being a father, of having a family unit, is far more alluring than the reality when that reality tests the selflessness of some - nobody is saying all - men. I’m sure the same could be said for some (far fewer) mothers.

I think there's something in what you say. I'm a bloke and before my first child was born I didn't appreciate just how life-changing it would be. I can't say that my DP did either but it's unignorable that pregnancy affected her way more than it did me and actually giving birth is something I can't even comprehend. By the time we had our second child I at least had a better idea of what the sleepless nights etc would be after birth but I still didn't have to deal with labour, breast-feeding and all the rest. I definitely wanted to have children with her but I can't say I fully understood the real-world implications of that at the time. Who can, hand on heart, say they did?

Nevertheless there is definitely a proportion of men who see having kids as ittle more than the price they pay for having a relationship with a particular woman. They don't necessarily see it as a life-long commitment, it's just something you need to do to keep them on the hook, like taking them out for Valentine's or getting them a present on their birthday. I think there's a fair number of women who see having children in much the same light.

My husband took a year off after my maternity leave to be a stay at home dad, so I'm not sure we are exactly typical. But i'd agree he was pretty ambivalent about having kids or not having them when I first met him. His previous long term partner hadn't wanted any and it was not a deal breaker for him.

He was very much an equal partner in the chores/ nappy changes/ rocking babies to sleep stuff. But you aren't wrong about the 'helping' either. I think this is just a man thing. Somehow I seem to have to be the one who tells him what needs doing in all aspects of our lives, its not just with the kids, and lots of my friends seem to find the same with their marriages.

I should add- he wouldn't be without kids now he has them. He is in the next room with our son playing chess :)

Of course not, I say this all the time on here and get shouted down.

My DCs were in primary school in the 2000s in a decidedly middle-class area. Of the people standing in the school playground waiting for their DCs to come out there were no more than 1:10 who were men. If there were parties at the weekend and there were men present, usually they were there along with their partners/wives.

My DH liked the idea of children in fact out of both of us he was more keen than me to start a family. He wanted 4 children. By the time our eldest was a few months he realised he didnt want 4 children i never wanted 4 children anyway
They are teenagers now and there is a lot of when they were toddlers or a lot younger, that he "remembers" differently to me...basically because he wasnt very involved. If you asked him he would say he often came to parents evenings, sports days, school concerts etc because he remembers going to one or 2 of them. (In 15 years)

I think in some circumstances it can be that if the mother has had, say, a year of maternity leave and then it switches over to the father to do it then it's obvious that the mother has established routines that work for her and the child and so the father necessarily should ask her what she's set up so he can follow suit.

In some other circumstances there are mothers who are insistent that what she has decided is canonically The Right Thing and so anyone deviating from that be it the father, the grandparents, the childminder etc is axiomatically doing The Wrong Thing and so they feel forced to check with her at every point to make sure they're not stepping outside of her restrictions.

And then there are situations where the father is deliberately being incompetent as a way of forcing the mother to take on all the responsibility.

I think it’s biological, I think most women who have kids have an extremely strong bonded biological responsibility to raise and protect their child. The bond sometimes starts when the pregnancy test is positive.
I think this bond can be weaker or none existent in some men.

I'd probably agree

Early on in our relationship we sought of did the whole "if we ever had kids....etc" conversations but always felt neither of us were 100% about it. Long story short his friend had kids and very difficult circumstances which tragically led to one of them being extremely disabled and passing away very young, and I think that sort of cemented the fact he didn't actually want kids and couldn't go through that. . And in a way I was actually relieved because I also do not want kids. And once we released we were on the same page I felt better about it.

I did ask him if he thought he's ever change his mind. He said no. But I also asked if I had really wanted them..would you have gone along with it? 😬 And he did admit probably would have, even though it wasn't what he wanted cos a lot of women (don't want to say most but let's assume most) would.

So I do wonder if there are a lot of other men who go with having kids not necessarily because they actually want them but because their partner does?

This was my experience 100%. Although I also suspect he said he wanted kids because I wanted them and he wanted me.

Mine too. The rare exception, everyone male and female thinks they’re a total arse.

I can’t speak for anyone else but my ex husband was exactly like you described. He wanted kids but (as I now know) he didn’t want to be a father. He wanted someone else to look after them and for him to swoop in just to do the fun bits.

I was a SAHM out of necessity, and that meant I did every single night get up as he either needed to sleep as he was going to work, needed to sleep as he was tired and had to prepare for going back to work, or he was working away. There were times that I was so tired I couldn’t think.
Then when I went back to work he told me that he wouldn’t be ringing in sick to his work if the kids were off school sick.
I’d advise everyone to discuss this stuff before you get pregnant, it’s not something I thought of before.

It completely obvious that lots of men don't want children very much at all. Look at the numbers who abandon them.

My ex and father of all but 1 of my children said he wanted children, was on board through the whole process of talking about and planning and having them but gradually turned into the most resentful and jealous person ever and ended up telling me he never actually wanted them, he only went along with it all because I wanted them, basically saying I somehow forced him into it. Charming, right!

Many men want kids like kids want pets. For the fun parts, but have no intention to actually do any of the hard work.

Agreed. If you look to the broader statistics about what happens in the event of separation / divorce, they do bear out the idea that an awful lot of men aren’t interested in and don’t particularly love their children: 20% of separated / divorced fathers lose all contact with their children afterwards, and almost 50% don’t see their children regularly. Nearly 60% of non-resident fathers due to pay child maintenance through the CMS don’t pay either what they should, or pay at all. These are all clearly men who couldn’t give much of a shit and probably either didn’t especially want children in the first place or only liked the fantasy.

I think they do want kids but in the context that they will pick and choose how they parent and how much they parent all while knowing that the mother of their child will pick up their slack. It’s a very different decision making process for women. They can’t be compared.

It’s kind of like agreeing to take a job knowing that you will be able to pick and choose what parts of the job you do and how often but still receive the same benefits as your colleagues. Most people would happily make that decision.

They might share parenting equally but a lot of the time women still carry most of the mental load.

Hard to say really. DH is so good, when DD was about 1 and was honestly a pain at night, he was the one cuddling her in bed while I slept. He's the one doggedly stood on the tennis courts every weekend, offering to be trained as the first aider etc at the club, making DS write out the spellings neatly.

He parents differently to me, sure.

But he's absolutely there, doing his share. When I have my seasonal busy time in my job he steps up, plans half term fun etc.

The kids would be lost without him.

Oh and when eldest got chicken pox and I was busy at work , he took the time off. No questions asked. When youngest was in hospital and he was busy at work i covered. We are a team.