to think a lot of men don’t actually want children as much as they say they do?

[olaay]

I don’t mean all men, before anyone jumps on that. But it does feel like quite a few are very into the idea of kids rather than the reality.

They’ll talk about wanting a family, being a dad, all of that. On paper they’re completely on board. But when it comes down to what having children actually involves, it often feels like the woman is the one really carrying it, not just physically but in every other way too.

You see it in how the conversations go. Women thinking it through properly, what it means for their body, their job, their day to day life. Men sort of agreeing, going along with it, but not always engaging with the full picture in the same way.

Then once the baby arrives, it turns into this dynamic where he “helps” rather than just being an equal parent. Like it’s still ultimately her responsibility and he steps in when needed.

It just makes me wonder how many men genuinely want children in a proper, day to day, all in way, and how many just like the idea of it without really thinking about what it looks like long term.

You're determined to be right, aren't you.
Poster- "I know plenty of men that share the parenting equally."

You - "No, they don't really".

Its interesting, I listened to a podcast about parenting , and it talked about the change in the last century where parent changed from a noun to a verb. I think a lot of men (i include my DH here) havent really caught up

93% say I am not being unreasonable.

I think most men wouldnt have kids if up to them

Basically this. They don't particularly want children, but they realise that its part and parcel of having a woman/wife in their lives. In other words, the men know full well if they say up front they don't want kids it could be a deal breaker for the woman. A lot are not brave/honest enough to say this.

I personally feel personal relationships altogether are going through very turbulent times. Both sexes seem to very suspicious of eachother's motives and loyalties right now. I honestly think there are going to be a lot of single childless people in their 40s in ten years time.

I’ve noticed that a lot of men do love hai g kids and share the work and accept the responsibility gracefully.

My ex liked the idea but hated the reality. Couldn’t be arsed and just didn’t want the responsibility of putting someone else’s needs before his own.

i do think a lot of men these days are good! The ones that aren’t get left behind.

I see it in different ways from both men and women tbh. Yes some fathers definitely should be more involved, but others are having to take on the pressure of being the only one providing financially when one parent (usually the mother) wants to become a SAHP. This of course often means more working hours which can impact upon time available to parent.

They want kids the same way kids want dogs.

Does one partner hear what other is saying or only what they thinl they here?

Going along with something or doing it because the other wants it is not the same as wanting it themselves

But maybe couples should have planning discussions on once the first child is born who will be doing what?

A lot of me go along with what the woman wants,or they like the idea of proving their manhood by fathering a child, but they don’t want to actually parent.

An interesting discussion, I think for most people the ‘idea’ of children and babies is based on their own experiences of being a child, sibling etc and not being a parent. It’s primarily understood through their experience of childhood and the experiences of how they were parented. All the research can be done beforehand, but nothing can teach more than the lived experience of having a child. So I think you are being unreasonable because the experience of becoming a parent and the individual feelings and reactions and behaviours once a parent are going to vary hugely between men and women.

Me and dh always wanted a big family and have 9 and I gave up a career to sah and absolutely love it. Was always happy to do nights aswell because dh started work at 5am - 3pm but I always knew and still know the minute he gets in and his work clothes off he will be diving in making tea, doing housework or mostly playing with our tribe etc and putting them all to bed. So happy to do more kids things but have an extremely supportive dh in many other things that balances it for me

I'll be honest- I wanted children, myDH wasn't too bothered. We had 3. He's a great dad and he loves our kids. But I think i love them more! Maybe that is just a mum thing, but they are my life. Dont get me wrong, DH will do anything for them (practically) but I deal with all the emotional stuff
I do know that he would have preferred us to have longer before having kids,but I was twitchy.

I think if the man was a little bit selfish before having kids then it's really going to show when kids arrive. I remember my MIL telling my SIL that her future DH would change when the kids arrive and be a great dad. Nope, he is exactly how he always was. Selfish men like the idea of kids, but still aren't going to put themselves out for them by doing the work.
My DH is probably a better parent than me.

I had two kids when I met dh, I was ambivalent about having more but dh wanted 1 or 2 . We had DS and dh was terrible in those early years if he had baby and I was having a rest he would come find me and be like ‘aww DS missed mummy’ He got very good at finding jobs to do at busy times (like witching hour)if I called him out he would deny it. And when DS got toddler he was completely overwhelmed by tantrums (DS was particularly bad later found out to be ASD) So i carried a lot of the parenting weight. Because of this I only went back to work part time and said no to another child.
I had no idea dh would be like that as he had always been hands on with my girls (7 and 9 when we met) But they were quite easy going and on reflection really he had been good at the fun stuff and I had still carried the mental load (which was fair as they were my kids)
I think some men like the idea of kids but are less fussed for the reality.

A lot of men do seem to want to father children, but not actually be fathers. I know far too many of these at work, sadly, working in a male dominated senior leadership team. Lots of divorces!

Among the middle and upper middle management, there does seem to be a difference though. More shared parental leave, definitely. 2 weeks for paternity doesn't seem to cut it for the younger generation. More fathers seem to feel able to ask for things like flexible working for childcare, leaving early for parents evenings, etc. But it is a terribly middle class workplace and the rank and file workforce is mostly clinical and allied health - nurses, psychotherapists, physios, OTs. I'm not sure therefore it's very representative, as at that level the workforce is only 30% male. Men in their 20s and 30s who enter the caring professions in my experience tend to want to be more hands on with their kids, though how much of that is more a sense of duty/fairness and responsibility than active enjoyment and fulfilment in fatherhood, I'm not sure. I'm not sure that's representative of other workforces/population groups either.

Conversely, there are still a lot of very sexist beliefs about what fathering is or should be. Both DH and DBIL got stick from their own parents about doing things like taking the bairns out in the carrier when they were babies, changing nappies, pushing the pram, going out on the bike with the trailer. Both say they wish shared parental leave had been an option for them back then and thet missed too much during the early years. They were unusual among their peers, who all seemed to want to spend as little time with their young families as possible and only really seemed to enjoy their kids when they got to around age 8-11.

Nine children 😲

Will you have paid enough NI by the time you are of pensionable age to get a full state pension?

DH is great and very hands on and present but I do think he was certain much more ambivalent about having kids and would have been happy not to have them. Having them was important to me, not him.

Now they’re here he’s a great dad, although the mental load is definitely mine (partly out of my own need to be in control of everything), but I think if we hadn’t met or had decided not to have kids or whatever then that wouldn’t have bothered him, he would have carried on with life quite happily. He didn’t feel the ‘need’ I suppose for kids in the same way I did.

It’s partially biological. We carry the child, feed the child if breastfeeding, they generally want us above anyone else certainly for the first year but beyond that too (it’s fair to say children find mum the most comforting). I reckon men feel a bit useless, they don’t and can’t bond in the same way we do. I’ve heard they bond more through play and being silly with them which obviously generally happens as they get older.

Having said that, I’d be interested in how women bond with adopted or surrogate children and whether they struggle in the way men do. I don’t interact well with other people’s young children. I’m fine with teenagers but I find young children kind of awkward to be around, even though I’m fine with my own.

Even the language being used - hands on. I never hear this used for mums. Only dads.

Same. And tbf although the school was MC, the very WC area we live in had similar ratios.

Wonens jobs aren’t paid less - some women just work in traditionally lower paid jobs. There is no reason why women can’t achieve higher paid careers.

One of the advantages of having a higher paying job was the ability to outsource a lot of tasks which made having a family easier when both parents are working full time

I don’t think a lot of women realise the reality of it either!

My kids are in their 20s, once I returned to work full time then I had to hand over 50:50 to DH and it took a few years until it was truly shared. There were plenty of other couples where the Dad did an awful lot but when you got to know the family better it wasn’t shared 50:50. There were plenty where the Dad did next to nothing of the parenting/mental load.