to think a lot of men don’t actually want children as much as they say they do?

[olaay]

I don’t mean all men, before anyone jumps on that. But it does feel like quite a few are very into the idea of kids rather than the reality.

They’ll talk about wanting a family, being a dad, all of that. On paper they’re completely on board. But when it comes down to what having children actually involves, it often feels like the woman is the one really carrying it, not just physically but in every other way too.

You see it in how the conversations go. Women thinking it through properly, what it means for their body, their job, their day to day life. Men sort of agreeing, going along with it, but not always engaging with the full picture in the same way.

Then once the baby arrives, it turns into this dynamic where he “helps” rather than just being an equal parent. Like it’s still ultimately her responsibility and he steps in when needed.

It just makes me wonder how many men genuinely want children in a proper, day to day, all in way, and how many just like the idea of it without really thinking about what it looks like long term.

What’s the saying - men want children the same way children want a pet. They want to do all the fun bits but know deep down that their partner will take care of the shit parts if they don’t want to. And if they really can’t cope, they can just leave with very few repercussions.

This has been my experience too.

The only family I know where it isn't the case have very odd and rigid ideas about sex based stereotypes in general and have raised their children (one of each) completely differently.

But the others? Nope, all have fairly equal and normal set ups/lives.

I don't think men in developing countries are bothered about whether they have kids or not, they just go along with it because thats what the woman wants.

In third world countries, children are important, bring in income and support you during your old age so children then are essential and very much wanted but here in the UK not so much.

While DH and I agreed to start a family, I definitely took the brunt of the entire decision for a long time. No family support either just for a break even half a day for someone to help. It was rough and DH and I fought so much I would be feeling like absolute rubbish and still have to press on with being a good mum.

It’s only lately that DH has really stepped up compared to the first few years. I truly was going to separate and divorce a few times.

While this is great for DC now to have both of us, it’s left a few scars we are still working on.

Yes, and I'd distinguish this sort of man from one who really doesn't want DC at all. Because it's very much a thing for some of them to want kids but just expect not to do 50% of the work.

I think a lot of men either don't want children at all because of the financial cost, and will beg or pressure their wife/girlfriend to terminate a pregnancy, or they think that having a baby ensures that their wife will become a 24 hour a day unpaid cook/housekeeper/nanny/secretary and they are shocked to discover they are expected to actually do some parenting too.

My ex morphed before ds and I had left the maternity unit. He changed from being loving, attentive and caring to being dismissive and rude to the point the midwife asked if there was "anything I wanted to tell her".

I spent the next two years trying to get him to behave normally and then I took ds and left, moved to my home town, rented a flat and went back to work. Ex was outraged. That I might not put up with his rudeness, laziness and contempt had not occurred to him. He thought having a baby made me dependent on him and in his control. He is still angry, 15 years later.

I am an older mum. Perhaps it is a generational thing.

Well obviously. Men and women are fundamentally biologically different. Something many on here often want to overlook, and those differences underlie a significant proportion of the issues posted on MN. Simply put, biologically speaking men are here to have the sex and women are here to have the babies and be the primary care giver. All the rest is societal conditioning. Does that mean men don’t want babies? No. But men’s ideas about child raising are very different to women’s. They look forward to different things such as teaching their children how to kick a football or passing on practical skills which is why many have little interest in the baby years but often get more engaged as the child gets older.

Shocking but probably quite common.

I hope you went on to have a decent and fulfilling life - your ex will probably be bitter till the day he dies.

I think a lot like the idea but not that bothered
but I honestly think if they were told it would be up to them to make all the sacrifices they wouldn’t have kids
not because there lazy and expect women to do it it purely the fact having kids isn’t to be all and end all they just wouldn’t have them

a lot make the right noises about having kids for a quite life

I think if ever they get the male contraceptive pill there would be be an enormous decline in the birth rate and no more happy accidents

I completely agree, I think men are inherently selfish and will put their needs and wants first.
Our children are teenagers now but they amount of times I've suggested a visit somewhere or watch something on TV together to be told, "It's not really my thing, I'm not interested"
It's not for you! It's for the kids!
I really think more women would leave their husbands because they are so useless but don't because they feel guilty about being the one to split up the family.

We still laugh about the time I met with all my siblings and their partners and our huge collection of annoying small children for a family picnic. Sister was wrangling her baby and toddler and we asked why her DH wasn’t there.
‘Oh it’s not really his thing. He’d rather be at home watching the football’
He also made the children stand up and greet him when he came home from work…

Women only have to be the primary caregiver if that’s what both parents decide. We’ve raised DT’s jointly - DH is more than capable of buying their shoes, organising dental appointments, knowing the names of their friends, what is on their Christmas list etc.

Some women just make bad choices in their partners and future fathers of their children

I’d add to this with the amount who talk about wanting kids and wanting a family and then when push comes to shove say they’ve changed their minds.

On this site they are referred to as future fakers- but I don’t think in all cases they are, I think they just don’t think about the reality in the same way.

I think it is also becoming more prevalent now as men fly the nest and launch later - start to have more years of fun on their own terms and then don’t want to give that up.

Personally I struggle to understand how you can change your mind on something as massive as kids- I can see that someone isn’t the right person, but I can’t get how you change your mind entirely-but then I look at the number of mine and my friends relationships that have ended or are unhappily childless because of this it doesn’t seem to be just one or two…

I think being the one who is pregnant with a child makes quite a difference. Biology has a part to play. My DH had an instant love for our children and is a great dad but he didn't have that deep distress, conflict and guilt that I felt when I had to go back to work and leave them. Presumably that is nature doing it's thing. If mothers left their babies, the babies would die. I read somewhere that human babies are born earlier in their development than some other species (due to head vs pelvis size) so are very dependent for a long time.

I think that these types of men have always existed but between the benign neglect, parentified older daughters, downtrodden wives and extended family women providing support it wasn't the same problem it is now.

Stand and greet him? Like Captain Von Trapp?

I actually know far more women who don't, and have never, wanted children - though as a child-free woman myself I've naturally gravitated more towards this kind of social circle. Insisting that the desire for children is fundamentally down to your sex once again erases the lived experiences of child-free women (and I suppose men who actively want to be parents).

Of the parents I've talked to in depth about this, I know one father who says he would have been equally content if his wife hadn't wanted children, but is also fairly happy that she did. I also know one mother who says her husband was the driving force behind having kids while she was ambivalent, and even now he does the bulk of the heavy lifting. But in general, before any of my friends had kids, I saw a lot of ambivalence and uncertainty over parenthood, from the women as well as the men. The difference is that the women had to make a definitive decision much earlier than the men rather than because they had a stronger inherent desire.

When I was dating - albeit in my 20s, so before any of my peers were thinking about kids at all - I met a couple of men for whom my being child-free was a deal-breaker. They were in the minority though.

I think the difference is women know it and say it, whereas there seem to be more men that change their minds, are never ready, or stop at the threshold. I’d say from my circle (and again it might just be where I have gravitated to) more women in my life have had their worlds upended by men moving the goal posts than the reverse.

I disagree and it’s one of the stories we tell ourselves to excuse men for not stepping up. I manage to help out people whose children aren’t mine. I manage to care for my pets even though I didn’t give birth to them.

I didn’t even bond that brilliantly early on with my first, partly I think because I was so very tired and didn’t get any help whatsoever. But I still managed to get up several times every night to feed and change him, see to all his needs, do all the stuff in the house, cook all the meals, do all the shopping etc. Because I knew it had to be done, not because I had some sacred woman gene. I didn’t expect him to do 50% or anywhere near; but not to ever give me a lie in or do the bedtime routine or do the overnight shift - not genetics, just laziness and entitlement.

My STBXH didn’t help not because he couldn’t be helpful or because my son wouldn’t go to him. He didn’t help because he wanted to live the single life while getting all the benefits of being married. He loves the boys now and wants to spend a lot of time with them because they’re adults and can look after themselves. But he didn’t make them nice, polite young men, didn’t teach them to swim or play tennis, didn’t take them to golf lessons (although he loves to play with them now), didn’t teach them to ride their bikes or cook for themselves, even though he had done all those things in his childhood.

If we keep putting things down to nature rather than nurture and societal expectations then we’ll still have men saying that’s why they have affairs, don’t do their fair share at home, complain about being lonely when they don’t do anything to change that.

And if my sons ever treat their wives like that then I’ll be having a stern word.

Agree. I have spoken to friends who say they and their DH do everything 50:50. But it is actually the women still carrying the mental load and doing a lot of the organising. They have to tell the men to do stuff.

Women have to know it and say it. I know many women who changed their minds, never felt ready and/or stopped at the threshold. Difference is that despite all of that, they had to commit one way or the other anyway. One of my friends told me when she was 35 that she actively didn't want kids at that stage of her life - but she knew she wanted them eventually, so she had to get on with it. If she was a man she would've happily had another half-decade, if not more, of being child-free. I also have another friend who never really made up her mind either way. She's 45 now and her body has made its mind up for her (she has no regrets, but her decision to be child-free was a passive one rather than an active thing she pursued). If she was a man she would still have options (and she says if she was a man she'd still be on the fence!).

I always think the best way to actually find out the answer is, if you have children, to ask your husbands/partners whether they'd have stayed with you had you been child-free - or if that would've been a deal-breaker, in the same way that a man who said he didn't want children would've been a deal-breaker for you.

And of course there are women who believed they wanted children until they had them, then realised they didn’t.

There’s 5 types of men when it comes to this issue.

1. the ones who genuinely want to be a father and put effort into parenting and raising their kids.
2. the ones who want kids but don’t want to do any of the actual parenting so leave it all to the mother and get shitty if they’re asked to step up. These will give up and leave if they don’t get their way.
3. the ones who are completely indifferent and just go along with it, then instantly regret it when they realise how much work, lifestyle changes and sacrifice it involves. They often just allow themselves to get persuaded or railroaded into it by the mother. These will also end up leaving if the mother doesn’t do all the parenting because they “can’t cope”.
4. The ones that don’t want kids, but can’t be arsed to ensure that doesn’t happen. These are feckless twats who will end up with multiple kids they never see or pay for.
5. the ones who don’t want kids and are sensible enough to manage that properly.

1 and 5 are tiny minorities of men. Most men are in 2, 3 or 4.

Absolutely. There are exceptions but the majority of men have children because their wife/partner wants them or they just feel it’s expected of them.

Its something we as a society rarely acknowledge to ourselves. Most men can take or leave children. They may ultimately come to feel grateful for having them but fundamentally they aren’t motivated to have them.

I think the other factor is that society’s definition of a father has changed. For my father’s generation you were expected to provide financial support and stick around and that was about it.

Fatherhood today is much more demanding (as it should be). A lot of men who are middle aged now observed their fathers as fairly hands-off figures who brought home the bacon but did little else and they lack the mental and emotional roadmap to deliver what their partners need and feel resentful that they are expected to go much further than their own fathers did.