to think a lot of men don’t actually want children as much as they say they do?

[olaay]

I don’t mean all men, before anyone jumps on that. But it does feel like quite a few are very into the idea of kids rather than the reality.

They’ll talk about wanting a family, being a dad, all of that. On paper they’re completely on board. But when it comes down to what having children actually involves, it often feels like the woman is the one really carrying it, not just physically but in every other way too.

You see it in how the conversations go. Women thinking it through properly, what it means for their body, their job, their day to day life. Men sort of agreeing, going along with it, but not always engaging with the full picture in the same way.

Then once the baby arrives, it turns into this dynamic where he “helps” rather than just being an equal parent. Like it’s still ultimately her responsibility and he steps in when needed.

It just makes me wonder how many men genuinely want children in a proper, day to day, all in way, and how many just like the idea of it without really thinking about what it looks like long term.

I ageee OP. This isn’t an unpopular or rare opinion, it’s often said men want kids like kids want puppies. It’s definitely not just a mumsnet thing.

A lot of men are jumping on the bangwagon and doing the tickbox of what society expects. Don’t get me wrong many women have kids for those reasons too, but the difference is in most cases the mums will stick with parenting regardless and at least do the bare minimum of being in their child’s life every day.

Unlike many men who decide to leave and see their kids EOW or stay in the relationship and leave most of the childcare to their partners even when they’re both working.

There’s a reason why the phrase “ parent is babysitting” is more commonly applied to Dads than Mums.

I respect men who are smart enough not to chime in with that “ I want a legacy via a child” crap and actually think hard about if they really want a kid, and why and if they would be a good father.

Some people meet men at 50 with no kids or ex and think that’s weird, personally I think good on them. It clearly wasn’t for them.

Better that than being a shit father and shit husband just so you can have “father and husband” engraved on your headstone.

Neither of us were particularly keen to have children. I was less keen than my husband. But we weren’t brave enough to not have them because of the fear of regretting it when we were in our 40s and too old.

Anyway, we had them, we liked them and didn’t want to send them back. My husband is the best most devoted, supportive and all round perfect dad in the world. Well, our children and I think so, anyway. I tell them often how very lucky they are.

It needs to become way more socially unacceptable to do this. Men need to be shunned and excluded and talked about the way women would be if they upped and left. Sometimes shaming is useful!

There also should be legal penalties for not paying maintenance.

I think most men don't want children.
They just want fuck.

Fatherhood may be more demanding, but then most men aren’t “bring home the bacon” in the same way as their fathers.

Men are expected now to do more than their fathers because they can’t afford to support a stay at home mother as they did.

My take is that back when there were traditional 1950s house wives there was also respect. My grandfather truly respected my grandmother as head of the household and the money he earned was family money. Now men want equal income into the household but women to also run the household. Then they’re confused when the woman loses her shit.

not all men - I work full time and dh does his share as an equal partner but others seem to think I should be grateful he “helps me” so much.

I also see a lot of dads that both expect their partners to bring home money to pay the bills and to be treated like breadwinners in terms of never having to do things like bedtimes.

If anything I hear more about dad's equally splitting loads on here than I see in real life.

I'd say it's nigh on impossible for men to want children in the same way as women do.

There's not the biological feeling or the societal pressure.

That's not to say they don't make good fathers when it happens, but I reckon the number of men that actual definitely want kids matches the number of women that definitely don't.

I'm lucky in that my parents were equals when it came to both wanting and then caring for me and my sister. If anything, my dad was maybe even the more involved parent, as he was the SAHP in the early years as he was dyslexic and only qualified as a labourer type jobs where as my mum was more able to do better paid/skilled work. My dad is the absolute best parent in the world (mum sadly passed in 2010) he's actually carer for both of us, nothing is too much to ask, he adores us and would do anything for us.

Compared to friends i've had with shit or even totally absent dads, it makes me sad they'll never have the relationship experience with a father that i do.

Usually they are expected to do both (as is the mother often).

But while working mums are expected to come with earning plus primary care responsibilities men seem to struggle with the idea of combining them.

Most of them understand in theory that its no longer acceptable to work eight hours and bugger off to the pub while their partner works and manages the domestic load. So even the most regressive bloke nowadays seems to be capable of programming a washing machine or taking the bins out when asked to do so.

But they still seem very bad at the project management element of child raising and still mainly default to assuming that the mother will do the thinking and planning. I think a lot of them think its more than they signed up for. Hence the “mental load” debate.

This

I think we need to be more honest about the fact that for women that do feel the drive to have babies a significant proportion of them will be doing so with rubbish dads. The fact that there's a shorter time limit on fertility for women doesn't help either.

I've seen lots of threads that blame women for choosing the wrong men and claiming that it's possible to work out who the bad ones are based on prior behaviour. I'm not always convinced that this is true or that there are enough of the good ones to go around anyway.

Absolutely.

The idea that you can “spot the bad ones/good ones” has always been smug, victim blaming nonsense.

But it also takes as it’s starting point a set of assumptions about male/female relationships which is old fashioned and pretty depressing: that the man’s role is as a passive, uncomplaining provider who has to shut up and bankroll a woman who will prioritise having children over her partner’s wellbeing.

That model is less and less relevant today. For example as a sole breadwinner parent for many years I would have had no use for a man who wanted to bankroll me. (I would actively have avoided one.) And a man who doesn’t want children isn’t automatically an arsehole.

This is why working and having your own income is the only genuine guarantee for women who want children. A good, reliable and committed man is a massive bonus but it shouldn’t on its own ever be the premise or the guarantee for having children.

The idea that you can “spot the bad ones/good ones” has always been smug, victim blaming nonsense.

Sometimes red flags are ignored or mistaken for something else. I do think women need to own the consequences of their decisions. Especially when they have more children with men who have already shown they are shit fathers.

If a dad is so useless after the first child why keep on having them

And why don't parents have discussions and set expectations before conceiving

Obviously yes. But as documented on here most men don’t initially present as arseholes.

Abuse/neglect/disengagement tend not to set in until a woman is captive.

If men advertised the fact they were feckless or unfaithful from the getgo they would never have sex.

DH wanted DC more than I did. I didn't want them at all at first but did eventually change my mind though I also know if I had married someone who didn't want DC then it wouldn't have been a dealbreaker either.

I'm glad I have DC but it wasn't a must for me. It was for DH.

If a man was brought up with a mother doing all the parenting and a dad going to work and having a bit of fun with the DC at the weekends, they're idea of parenting is likely going to be carry on as normal with a bit of fun with DC at the weekend. So I wouldn't say they don't really want to be parents, just that they're expectation for the division of labour is likely to be very different to what most women would expect today.

I think lots of men do want children. Becoming a father gives a man more status. They just don't want the work that comes with them.

Perfectly understandable, I'm sure most women don't want the work either. We do most of it though it though, regardless of whether we want it.

TBF I think neither men nor women really know what's about to hit them with the level of work having children involves.

I would imagine a lot of men like my DH say they want kids without having the slighest clue what is like.

Does any new parent have a good idea of what having a baby is really like? I certainly didn't and neither did DP.

I think it's taboo to say it (so you hear it less often) but there's an awful lot of mothers who are uninterested in their kids too. I don't think it divides by gender tbh

I’d hadn’t a clue before DT’s were born - no one does

My kids’ Dad left me with DC1 I was pregnant with DC2 for a much younger coworker.
He now has a toddler and they have just had an early miscarriage.
I can’t work out what category that puts him in.
He knows having kids is hard work but has gone on to have more.

It's illegal to pay women less for the same job. Women do cluster more in lower pay occupations but that's not quite the same thing. Childless women tend to earn more equally, then the motherhood penalty kicks in after kids often, not before.