Violent children should be stopped regardless of other factors

[Hamalam]

The part that struck me about the Southport findings was the way AR seems to have been given leeway because he had an ASD diagnosis. Oh he’s carrying a knife and a hockey stick but he has ASD, as if that’s ok. It’s an attitude I have met a lot with my child school, where they and other children suffer from violence meted out but other children.

Oh but they have SEND / are in care / have a bad home-life as though that’s excuses my child being a victim. I really hope that one of the lessons learned by schools, police etc is to look at the threat or the violence and the danger to others, regardless of any ‘excuses’ the perpetrator might offer.

If a PRU can't help due to risk, then how is the child safe in mainstream?

Teacher that has had PRUs send kids back for being too violent but we can't say no, so have to keep them.

I hope this is the trigger for a harsher punishment system in education, bring back exclusions and start fining parents when their kids misbehave.

Depends on each individual- I’ve worked with kids who have carried knives because they believed everyone else did so needed protection- some have been PEXed other remained in school with no further issues.

I have kids entrenched in criminal exploitation aged 14 who need help to get out and in prison for attempted murder who will remain there for many years - every circumstance needs evaluation

If a PRU can't help due to risk, then how is the child safe in mainstream?

did I say that - but equally if ‘you’ view them as a risk to mainstream pupils that risk doesn’t disappear in a different setting

According to what law?

This really. DS is autistic, had violent meltdowns - put me in A&E on more than one occasion.

Changing schools helped - he couldn't cope with the chaos of 30 children in a class -, melatonin and improved sleep helped a lot with his ability to regulate, but the biggest help was a term long weekly group which taught the children how to regulate their emotions, techniques to avoid meltdowns, in a fun, social way.

Punishments didn't work because he couldn't control his reaction enough to avoid the punishment which caused further dysregulation. Incentives didn't work, because the pressure to achieve them caused dysregulation.

The failure of using punishments and incentives meant DS had lost trust in us. School had done a lot of work around ELSA etc., but was also a difficult place for him.

That group, that had nothing to do with us or school was brilliant, it was so beneficial for him that he was one of the very few children who were able to attend twice, he really thrived there, and I wish it could have been longer term really, but understand that would restrict the number of children supported.

I don’t think violent behaviour or abuse should be tolerated. I do think that children particularly who are violent need to be managed much better. I do think the root cause such as background, ND needs to be supported.

It is not very easy though because I do think you have to consider both aspects and people tend to consider one aspect at the expense of the other aspect and that does not work.

@MeetMeOnTheCorner DOLs orders

I have 7 young people currently on them - for their own protection- none are in secure units with education- there are no places. They are locked down in semi independent accommodation with 5-1 staffing 24/7 at huge expense and unable to access education or training - devil makes work for idle hands

Having an offensive weapon in public is thankfully still a criminal offence..

I agree. I couldn't really care where they are but kids like this shouldn't be in school.

Thank you for your considered post - you are right and it is complex

ADHD, ASD, FASD all play a part as does CSE, ACES and family

I work with young people who’s parents never ever thought it would be their child - it’s sad

And any child caught with a knife would/is subject to that law - not many are locked up for 5 years for a first offence though because it’s not that simple

I’d recommend this as a good watch - https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m002r7tb

knife crime/CSE is complex and we are talking about children

Any change for managing these persons needs consideration of rights. We need to keep fundamental rights uppermost.

No one has the right to murder, to try or to threaten to kill.

You’d have thought you wouldn’t have to remind every public service. We do.

We should make it that simple. It’s very easy not to spend 5 years in prison. Choose not to carry a knife.

youthendowmentfund.org.uk/behind-the-knife-crime-statistics-understanding-children-who-carry-weapons/

I'm often genuinely shocked at what schoolkids (and teachers + other school staff) are expected to put up with.
At work, you wouldn't have to put up with people hitting, spitting, biting, throwing furniture around, trying to shove fingers up your arse (to use an example from a PP). So why the hell are kids expected to deal with such an environment without it affecting their life and learning?

@ghostyslovesheets I’m sure that’s right but it is a service that needs improvement and expansion. We don’t just have a problem with parenting, we have poor joined up thinking from professionals who come into contact with these dc too. Like many areas of child welfare, we need to improve and doing very little, whether parents or professionals has to stop. Passing the buck and not investigating property should be a disciplinary matter.

I've possibly picked you up wrong but it does sound like excuses again.

The victim should be the priority, children shouldn't be afraid or attacked in school

Again I don’t think any post I have made suggest s otherwise?

Its not ‘excuses’ it’s the range of issues and complex needs I see in my job which young people- many of whom have a history of criminal exploitation and knife carrying

The issue is risk to other children. Looking at the failures and people dismissing the potential for extreme violence in this case.

That's ridiculous some parents are just as bad, you see it on here all the time from parents of sen kids saying you can't tell them off or punish them as they don't understand. So what's the solution do nothing and cry when they end up in prison as adults because the judge won't give a shit that they are sen

Which is why each individual case needs a detailed risk assessment, safety plan and ongoing professional involvement.

I have some lovely kids who made one mistake due to peer pressure and/or fear and never fucked up again and others that are rightfully behind bars

It wasn’t very secure along the way for this person. Even picked up with a knife and then smiling about what he’d do with it (fatal violence) to police he was taken back home.

Plus the headteacher’s reports changed and minimised to avoid stereotyping.

When I was in primary school, a boy with learning disabilities had a particular fixation with me that involved pinning me down and forcibly kissing and touching me. I was expected to tolerate this because he was special needs. I had hoped in these more enlightened times we'd moved on from this. Apparently not.

Yes - the agency’s involved - Prevent, Lancashire Police, Lancashire Social Services, CAMHS, and FCAMHS. All made fatal mistakes and that’s why we need a more effective multi agency approach

Prevent didn’t have a ‘framework’ he fitted so ‘couldn’t’ act, SS - god knows - they will have a SCR I’m sure but I’m betting it’s down to lack of SW’s and training, CHAMS have no power to force people to engage so if YP say no their involvement ends.

the system is broken, it needs better funding- more specialist staff/support - more legislation behind it. People can only do what they can do in their jobs - as mentioned above there are no secure therapeutic placements around without huge waiting lists, YOS pre offence work is voluntary, youth workers are rare beasts these days.

A broken system will never work - neither will locking kids up.

Im not minimalising this crime - it’s atrocious and those found to have been negligent need to be held to account. Knife carrying and youth crime is an incredibly complex and underfunded area.

No child should ever die this way and no child should feel they need to arm themselves - but they do and that needs addressing