Violent children should be stopped regardless of other factors

[Hamalam]

The part that struck me about the Southport findings was the way AR seems to have been given leeway because he had an ASD diagnosis. Oh he’s carrying a knife and a hockey stick but he has ASD, as if that’s ok. It’s an attitude I have met a lot with my child school, where they and other children suffer from violence meted out but other children.

Oh but they have SEND / are in care / have a bad home-life as though that’s excuses my child being a victim. I really hope that one of the lessons learned by schools, police etc is to look at the threat or the violence and the danger to others, regardless of any ‘excuses’ the perpetrator might offer.

My ASD daughter had her thumb broken by a boy for slapping his hand away from up her skirt - she was kicked in the hand - she slapped him

she was excluded for a week and forced to apologise for slapping him - this was only 6 years ago!

Sadly girls still get a shit deal in schools for this abuse - regardless of the SEN status of the boy

I think anyone caught carry a knife without proper reason should spend some time inside.

First offence or not.

People with good intentions don’t just wonder about with machetes down their trouser leg.

A child walking to school with a kitchen knife in the coat or bag has it because they feel they might need or want to use it not because they have cooking class.

The intention to use the blade is why they have the blade.

If a teacher has suffered at the hands of, or being threatend by, a violent child and finds themselves unsupported by the school, they should call the police themselves.

It would be good if the Teaching Unions maintained a fund for private prosecutions against either the child-if he is old enough-or the parents if he isn't.

Of ccurse that won't happen. I read of appalling behaviour on here with people wringing their hands and saying they have tried everything with heir out of control 5 year old.

I often have to sit on my hands to stop myself from typing, "have you tried putting him over your knee and slapping his arse?"

It might just do the trick at home and in school.

You say 'range of issues and complex needs' but I still see that as more excuses. I couldn't care less what a kids issues are, they shouldn't be in mainstream schools if they can't behave.

I dont care about criminal exploitation or whatever other reasons they have, its not my child's problem to put up with. If these kids can't behave and their parents can't parent then they should be kicked out of school.

In a cell.

Outrageous.

What will these boys be like at 16, 18, 20?

Yup. I also don’t care about ‘range of…’ it’s a prison cell, PRU or a mental health unit but you’re not walking around endangering law abiding citizens.

Just a (vague but real) example - child being threatened online over a period of time told they were going to be ‘shanked’ on the way to school - took kitchen knife in bag to school - went straight to pastoral team - tearfully confessed to bringing a knife in - handed it over. Never involved in knife crime before or since - carried on the FE and did well

locking them up was not the solution

Child was 14

That child did the right thing with the confession however their answer to a threat of being stabbed was to take a knife to stab back…

Thats not helping is it. Now you have two people possibly out there with knife’s ready to attack or defend in one’s eyes. Now more people can get stabbed. Yay

The knife was to protect themselves if attacked- stupid yes but that’s how 14 year old brains work sometimes- no it’s not a YAY but it’s a reality

Maybe lock him in a YOI for 5 years - no GCSEs but FS at least - at 18 into the adult prison population- that will ensure he never commits another offence

Don't allow them in the country for starters.

Society needs a shift. We try to implement consequences and get long complaints from parents as their child didn’t mean it. We try to get support from agencies - they’re drowning. We cannot exclude as it’s due to unmet needs we have told them we can’t meet. We are drowning in schools.

One of the worst sentences allowed in the education system was "unmet need".

I’m not hugely anti immigration but I’d be interested to hear what proportion of stabbings are carried out by people born overseas (although I understand AR was born in the uk) as there seems to be a normalisation of machetes etc in some communities that there isn’t in ethnic British communities.

As a parent of a child with ASC and ADHD who has been suspended multiple times for violent, dysregulated behaviour, this is my deepest fear for his future. Yes, suspension does happen, even with a diagnosis and even with an EHCP in place. His dad and I have never used his additional needs as an excuse to let him do whatever he wants. We hold boundaries because we care about the adult he will become.

During his most difficult periods, when his behaviour was at its worst, I was begging for help every single day. I reached out repeatedly to the ADHD team, desperate for support, and was told there was nothing anyone could do.

It’s actually pretty simple, it’s just one of the many failings of the legal system. They should be locked up for 5 years +. If they’re school age on release, they should certainly not be allowed back into mainstream education.
Yes it requires funding, but it will make society much safer.

@MrsLJH What did you expect anyone to do? Parent him? Remove him from you? Sedate him!? I think the obvious answer is removal. No one ever wants it though. Plus it’s a case of going to court and the judge agreeing. Maybe we need far more residential schools for dc like this? We do realise that mainstream doesn’t work! We need a very different take on what must happen if dc are dangerous.

As long as my child is safe from violence and fear in their school I dont care about what happens to others. That might sound cruel but I can only raise and advocate for my child, other people's issues/excuses/bad experiences aren't my problem.

Half the problem is inclusion IMO. Inclusion is good - but only up to a limit. The lack of special school places and the ridiculous policy that stops schools saying they’re simply not suitable for particular children means you have children in school who absolutely struggle. They’re so far away from their peers socially and emotionally. They’re in an environment they can’t cope with. They’re often unable to listen properly, to show empathy, and to act in appropriate ways.

Rather than the government’s latest idiotic SEN scheme that is, in reality, purely a money-saving exercise, we need more specialist places and we need to allow schools to refuse to have children whom they know the school environment won’t work for. Some parents are so busy insisting on their child’s right to a mainstream education, or so in denial about their issues, they fail to see that specialist provision would actually help their child enormously (as well as helping their peers). Placing those children elsewhere would remove the most extreme children, and then schools could focus on those that could be helped in mainstream.

I also think people underestimate how bloody depressing and enraging it is for other children to watch violent and poorly behaved children being rewarded, being given extra privileges (our school gives them biscuits and milkshakes), not having to do any work, not being punished for eating other children’s lunches, for hurting other children, for throwing chairs in class, for kicking children trying to learn, for ripping up children’s work, for laughing and shouting and disrupting lessons, for punching children and staff, etc. They do all that and then get rewarded with cookies and an iPad.

How does that affect the MH and aspirations of other children? Children have a strong sense of fairness. How does it affect them to see staff forced to pander to this behaviour?

Me too...
What can you expect from a child if you can't manage them at this age. By the time they are teenagers it's too late

YANBU. I am getting sick to death of hearing about ASD and ADHD being used a mitigating factors for despicable behaviour. I don't give a shit about whatever else might be going on, the place to deal with that appropriately is in whichever secure, correctional insistution that young person finds themelves in, while the public is being protected from whatever they might be capable of.

It was the same as when Valdo Calocane was not sectioned because that particular NHS trust had concerns that a disproportionate number of men being sectioned were black and they were worried about the optics. So fucking what? Three people are dead and one woman has a broken back because of your worrying about optics.

Some of the comments here imply that parents of SEND children use a diagnosis as an excuse for poor behaviour. That has not been our experience and it certainly isn’t how we parent. My child has ASC and ADHD, an EHCP, and has still been excluded multiple times for violent, dysregulated behaviour so yes, schools can and do exclude SEND children.

We parent our child. We set boundaries. We work with the school and we work with him. Asking for help does not mean we are not doing that, it means we are doing everything we can. What we have been asking for is access to support and medication that is evidence‑based and proven to help children like him regulate.

He is smart, he is loving and he is funny. Hr does not need to be “locked away”. He needs the right support at the right time , not assumptions about his parents and not blanket statements about SEND that don’t reflect real life.

And wasn’t it Gregg Wallace’s excuse for being a sleaze?!

Some parents 100% use a diagnosis to excuse poor behaviour. I feel horrible for you that you have to go through this BUT

I find it extremely concerning your son has been repeatedly excluded for violent behaviour and then been allowed back to school to physically harm and scare other children