Violent children should be stopped regardless of other factors

[Hamalam]

The part that struck me about the Southport findings was the way AR seems to have been given leeway because he had an ASD diagnosis. Oh he’s carrying a knife and a hockey stick but he has ASD, as if that’s ok. It’s an attitude I have met a lot with my child school, where they and other children suffer from violence meted out but other children.

Oh but they have SEND / are in care / have a bad home-life as though that’s excuses my child being a victim. I really hope that one of the lessons learned by schools, police etc is to look at the threat or the violence and the danger to others, regardless of any ‘excuses’ the perpetrator might offer.

I agree OP. Excuses/some attempt at an explanation are not good enough, especially when the outcome to any victim is the same (whether from ASD or non-ASD individual).

Of course ASD is so incredibly common now that I do expect a push back of excuses not being acceptable, as ASD is seen as more mainstream.

If a child hit my child, I would not accept excuses of ASD.

All school kids will tell you that there is a two tier behaviour policy. One for the generally good kids, but completely different rules for the handful who make their lives a misery, disrupt lessons, and are violent towards them.

Ultimately did he have capacity to understsnd his actions?
If he wasent psychotic
Then yes he probably did he was able to plan and carry out the horriic murders ..

A change of attitude is needed. I hope there are recommendations at the end of this.

Its an extremely broad spectrum
My son is severly autistic with severe learning disabilties and can have challenging behaviour and hit out
But hes in a special school for children with severe and profound learning disabillities ,whilst he doesnt undetstand his actions his carers do and hes never left on his own
Its not acceptable to just say theres nothing that can be done becauss a person has autism.

You see it also with the VC case, where the police didn’t want to section him because he was black. What about the fact that he was strangling his flatmates? Did his actions count for nothing?

I doubt it. Schools are packed with teachers who want to be kind to and make adjustments for kids with awful behaviour. They need kicking out but won't happen.

The police are obliged to take a person in a public place who they beleive are having a mental health crisis to a place of safety to be assesed by mental health professionals under a section 136

I left teaching (secondary) because of this exact policy. You can imagine trying to teach a disruptive teenager Shakespeare when he knows if he calls you a cunt then he can trot off for a hot chocolate instead! It frustrated me that not only were the kids who wanted to learn disadvantaged by this, but also just how badly we were setting the troubled/troubling kids up to fail. There would be a celebration of getting X through the end of Year 11 without him being excluded, but X was then completely fucked in a world where there were actual consequences to his behaviour. The roll of former students like that who went from school to prison or the cemetery was bleak and I found it unbearable in the end. I went into teaching to do some good in the world, but it felt like the system wasn't set up to enable that.

And what about the other kids who DID actually want to learn about Shakespeare too? They have no chance of an education

The problem is health/learning issues are a vulnerability that schools need to flag and act on. It goes both ways, they are at risk of challenge if they are too harsh on feral children with ASD, which they clearly deem to have a worse impact to them vs if they were too soft on the feral children

I disagree. Schools are packed with teachers who have been kicked, punched, bitten & spat at. They've had chairs and tables thrown at them.

They are not allowed to make the appropriate adjustments, ie remove the violent child to an environment where he or she can be educated safely. They are forced by the local authority to continue with the children in situ, because councils cannot afford special school places.

He was sectioned multiple times. Most people in MH inpatient care are of color - certainly have been when I've been to visit friends and family members in these places.

The issue with him was lack of follow up to make sure he stayed on his meds.

You also mention PRU with this Southport chap - he was in one already.

In both cases the challenge is where cases aren't 'cut and dried' ie: clear MH diagnosis, or certain specific re-offending, the issues get passed from one agency to another, with very limited possibility for anyone to do anything prior to a severe crime actually being committed.

Trouble is the bog standard ways of disciplining and dealing with this behaviour often pushes them the other way.

If there is autism/ND in the mix, very often there is violence because of how they are being treated - normal discipline often does not work, but a flexible approach from schools has all but gone.

We had a local PRU that was amazing and turned loads of young people’s lives around, it’s now been academised with their special brand of authoritarian discipline - it’s now churning out even more troubled youngsters, many of whom end up in crime and prison.

There’s a fine line between letting kids get away with it and finding methods that actually work.

The children I know who have been in secure or YOIs or PRUs come out just as, if not more, angry and violent. It might temporarily move the situation away from mainstream but it doesn't 'stop' anything. It's a last resort and yes cost is a factor but it's far from the only reason.

It’s really difficult because 85% of prisoners have ND.
The others likely have awful home lives.
Many had both.

A dog that has been raised in an abusive home is going to have behavioural issues.

That doesn’t meant that ND = bad behaviour and most ND individuals are the opposite and have exemplary behaviour.

But schools used to be much stricter with bad behaviour and basically wash their hands of them and expel them - this is a great short term solution, especially for other kids in the class and teachers but it does not help the individual at all.

There is a strong correlation between being expelled from school and going to prison as an adult.

If these children don’t get the help now, then they grow up to become problem adults which we still have to deal with as a society.

So schools now try and keep these kids in school to get them the help they need and try and nip things in the bud so that they don’t grow up to be abusers, rapists, murderers etc

But this results in very stressed teachers and other kids having a worse school life because of it.

I think the government needs to put more funding into schools and every school needs to have dedicated staff members and rooms where instead of being expelled, these kids can be removed from the classroom but still given the education and help they need.

At the very least, they need to prioritise teaching assistants and realise that they are essential.

I don’t think most mainstream schools are set up to deal with ND or traumatised children, purely because of time and limited staff members.

I have worked in SEND units and PRUs and they get discipline and sanctions for bad behaviour and it’s shocking that this doesn’t always happen in mainstream schools.
Yes they get allowances because of their issues but ultimately they need to be taught right from wrong.

If their parents don’t teach them right from wrong then it’s on us to do it for them so that we can help this child who wants to do well and make friends etc and ultimately make them better adults too.

The trouble is, so many parents claim that their kids are ND and so you have half of the class needing ‘special treatment’.

I disagree. I used to teach and think that teachers are their own worst enemy. Willing to accept all that crap because it gives them the opportunity to polish their inclusive halo. Oh how they love the "challenging" kids.

Some teachers in a few schools have said no more and walked out. Most won't.

There is a huge issue with diagnostic overshadowing. Once you have an autism diagnosis everyone refuses to consider that you have anything distinct from it - depressed? Oh that autism. Anxious? Its autism. Personality disorder? No, that’s autism.

Whether speaking to CAMHS, school, social services… oh, it’s because of the autism.

It was bloody frustrating trying to get support for my gender dysphoric and self harming child. In the end we got nothing unless we went privately and that wasn’t much help because… autism. Probably because 90% of people in those departments don’t actually know anything about autism, how it presents in girls rather than boys, how ethno/cultural/socio factors may impact and shape its presentation. Lots of people who see the diagnosis on a form think they know everything, when they know absolutely nothing.

AR was ASD. But that has pretty much nothing to do with the fact that he is also mentally ill, socio/psychopathic, radicalised and ineffectually parented. Am appalled that the system failed those little girls and that community.

Sorry, am a ranting AuDHD mum of two AuDHD kids who absolutely know right from wrong and would never commit acts like this in the name of their ‘autism’. I fear that they will soon have to hide their diagnosis with because of coverage like this and the rapidly changing perception of what it actually means - ie it does not make you a sociopath.

ETA a million typos

I agree OP.

I send my children to school with clear instructions to hit back. They won't be anyone's punching bag just because the school is too scared to do anything.

Mental health issues are very different.

Being able to access MH services is shockingly difficult.
Apparently the waiting lists are years long.

There have been many cases of parents or wives/husbands begging MH services saying they’re going to kill someone and still nothing was done.

There was the women who drowned her kids but the DH had been begging for help for ages.

There is just not enough help out there.

A study has estimated that a quarter (25%) of people in prison have an attention deficit/ hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), around one in 10 (9%) have an autism spectrum disorder, and around one in 10 (9%) have an intellectual disability.

prisonthefacts_2023.pdf

just look at the child though? Is he or she posing a threat to other children? If so it’s residential mental health services, PRU or young offenders institution. It’s not up to other kids to help prevent a classmate from ending up in prison. They shouldn’t be suffering.

And? Did they commit crime? Yes? Therefore they need to be imprisoned for public safety.

It should be zero tolerance there should always be a consequence or punishment rather than hand waving.

Sen, bad home life, living in a cardboard box don’t speak the language should not be allowed to be an excuse for violence.

We shouldn’t have teachers regularly evacuating class rooms because that child should be removed from the school before it becomes regular.

Like a pp. There are children in every bloody class who get away with so much because of an issue. While generally good children would be punished for less than even half the behaviour of those other children.

We had to fight this at one of my children’s schools a boy constantly bullying, oh but his Sen . Idngaf he is a bully end of discussion.

Don't worry, they won't.