Violent children should be stopped regardless of other factors

[Hamalam]

The part that struck me about the Southport findings was the way AR seems to have been given leeway because he had an ASD diagnosis. Oh he’s carrying a knife and a hockey stick but he has ASD, as if that’s ok. It’s an attitude I have met a lot with my child school, where they and other children suffer from violence meted out but other children.

Oh but they have SEND / are in care / have a bad home-life as though that’s excuses my child being a victim. I really hope that one of the lessons learned by schools, police etc is to look at the threat or the violence and the danger to others, regardless of any ‘excuses’ the perpetrator might offer.

Money needs to spent, from where I don’t know. But I am happy to pay more taxes for a better society.
Because without help they might end up in prison when adults

I agree except i think parents need to face consequences in more extreme situations. If I had a dog that attacked someone, I can go to prison, yet if a parent lets their thug child attack someone, there is no consequence for them. Why are dog owners expected to have more responsibility for an animal than parents have for their kids?

If of course ARs parents had attempted to get help given what actually did happen and based on my experience with an unwell child would they have got an?

I suspect not

Widespread evidence shows that smacking raises more aggressive kids. You have taught them that physical violence is acceptable as a way of communicating something or getting what you want. Physical violence against kids is not a way to prevent physical violence by kids.

Indeed.
We have a nephew who was allowed to do exactly that with no repercussions.
Until he got punched back ... by our son, who was given instructions permission should he start to do exactly the same back.
He gave our son a very clear berth after that - ASD or no, on that day consequences were learned.

I’m not convinced about this because let’s face it nothing has improved and kids seem to be more violent these days in educational establishments with no consequences

Smacking worked, like it or not. The demonisation/illegality of smacking has directly correlated with a rise in violent children. As has the rise of so many children being diagnosed with psychiatric issues which so many parents use as an excuse to stop being parents as they have an excuse for why their child is the way they are.

I was seated waiting in my bank recently when a woman came in with a boy, clearly her child, he was large, probably 10 or 11 years old. She seated him next to me, but quite quickly he started to kick off, shouting, getting underneath the chair, swearing and then kicking. I moved away as he was getting scarily close to kicking me - she plainly took umbrage at my daring to move away, and without me having said anything she started to give me a loud lecture on how he was autistic so it wasn't hus fault. I tried really hard to ignore her and carried on trying to read my newspaper, but no, she was determined to tell me off, even though the boy was so out of control he was trying to hit her at this point. I'm afraid in the end i simply told her that was not my problem, and luckily it was my turn to be seen so i could escape the 2 of them. She plainly didn't care that had he kicked me in the violent way he was behaving he could have injured me. Nope, she just wanted all the people near us to know what a bigot i was. My bad clearly.

AR was actually in a pupil referral unit for a while after being excluded from mainstream school for bringing in a knife. Apparently his teacher there was convinced he would kill someone, as he’d said as much to her. But when she raised her concerns with the authorities she was accused of racial profiling.

I was having this exact discussion with a friend who works in education the other day and we were talking about when we were at school in the 90s, there was definitely kids with additional needs looking back but if they were disruptive they were sent out of the room, we were not evacuated. They were included with everything at school but they were not allowed to disrupt everyone else. When we went to secondary school there was a class that the disruptive kids could go to for set periods of the day for lessons. None of the exists anymore and I know from first hand experience of the trouble my DD is having with an undiagnosed boy (waiting for diagnosis) at her school yet it’s me who gets pulled in when she dares to stand up for herself or his family kick of for the 100000th time this week

@AlaskaThunderfuckHiiiiiiiii I left teaching for this reason. I was so fed up of disruptive children being rewarded with Lego and cookies because they were 'disregulated' and 'needed to calm down'. I saw first hand that they did it purely to get these rewards. They smiled when they left the room. They banded together and called themselves the 'ADHD' club. One child blatantly explained that they tripped up another child because they 'had ADHD and can't help it'. This was a 10 year old child. They're not daft.

Boils my blood.

Oh my god it’s getting worse and our youngster only left primary under 3 years ago.

We sent both of ours to secondary schools with a decent expulsion rate, some people think it’s a bad quality in a school but it is not. They don’t expel well behaved pupils do they?

I rarely had to contact the eldest’s school, and the youngster is thriving with one year left. Some parents who kept their children at the local middle class all very nice on the surface school gave an additional full-time job contacting them about behaviour and lesson disruption it’s the “let’s get the parents and children together to have a nice happy flappy let’s all forgive and be friends again chat”.

My DD was always seated next to a teenage boy who definitely had a diagnosis . Because she was a calming influence! He talked constantly and watched videos on his phone and was constantly showing my DD . She tried to ignore his behaviour but if she ever tried to tell him to be quiet, when she was trying to listen to the teacher.
It was her who use to get wrong for talking or not listening. The teacher never spoke to the boy!
I did complain. They just kept saying he liked her and was better behaved when sat next to her!!
My DD was thrilled when he started to play truant. I do think he had an unhappy home life, his mother bought him alcohol and weed!!

Well, yep. What did everyone think would happen if every other child was diagnosed with autism or adhd??

We want help in how to manage the behaviours, and how to reduce them.

And you think removal from a good home isn't going to cause distress & trauma and further problems with dysregulation? The care system has terrible outcomes and I would not want that for my child.

That is clearly unreasonable behaviour on the part of the mother, and if I saw DS was getting that dysregulated when out we would be leaving immediately. This is the reason why we always knew where the nearest Costa was, as it was a safe place for DS and somewhere he could calm down when distressed.

I suppose I'm fortunate in that DS didn't attack others during meltdown, only myself & DH and was far more likely to shutdown in public. But I have stood in the middle of town, trying to keep DS safe and not running out into roads or getting in the way of others while he tried to gouge lumps out of me.

We need to get in early and support these children with correct placements and not just shove them in mainstream education, cross our fingers, hope for the best and then be shocked when they can't cope. It's obvious that most of these children don't belong in mainstream education.

It's cheaper though so that is what will continue to happen and with EHCP's changing, this is only the beginning. It's going to get much, much worse.

Yes, that’s how it is with DD1, she only targets my DH and me with her meltdowns. (Although it’s become clear that DD2 (14) has been negatively impacted by her rages over the years.) Outside, DD1 is more likely to shut down and then let it all out at home. Although she has in more recent years sworn at other people, which I really do struggle with.

Yep this was also my DD she has pretty much had this boy foisted on her from around P4 she’s in p6 now because she is a ‘good influence’ until she flipped her lid and drew a not very nice picture so I said to the teachers when I was pulled in that perhaps she had just had enough of being hit and kicked and having her bag emptied in the hall all the time and perhaps it was time for them to be kept separate which they are in class etc now but harder to police in the play ground, she isn’t the only kid having issues with this boy either, good thing he leave for secondary school after the summer and isn’t going to the same one as my DD so she can have a year of peace

We need a lot more state special schools. Shutting so many down was a huge mistake.

We need a lot. I’m at a kids day out farm thing today and the sheer number of kids here with difficulties is really surprising. A lot of completely verbal and physically able 16 year olds queuing to go down slides and hold hamsters etc - not sure what’s going on but many do not seem age appropriate

Cognitive difficulty probably, it’s not always visible.

Luckily I guess for me, my kid couldn’t be mistaken for NT when he’s frantically stimming about the place in his ear defenders, but if they’re not presenting that “obviously,” it’s likely they’ve got cognitive that isn’t visible.

Of course, they may already be in SENd school… and don’t sound violent.

I mean possibly but I was commenting more on the numbers than the specific issues they have. It was a LOT.

The plan is for more children to attend mainstream schools, not less. It isn't going to go well for anyone.

Yes that's going to be a disaster. Completely unfair on the children who aren't getting the help they need and on all the other children in the class who are getting their education disrupted. I don't get why the government won't open more state sen schools so there are enough for all the children who need them. Then they could stop paying extortionate fees for a minority of children with sen to attend private special schools and leaving huge numbers of the rest in unsuitable mainstream environments.