Will antisemitism ever be looked at and dealt with in the same way as Islamophobia is?

[LucyWestenra]

AIBU for thinking it won’t? Because it doesn’t seem to be the case in this country or my home country (Germany).

(I just googled because it didn’t seem right to have antisemitism in lower capitals, but apparently that is correct, as I thought)

Much love to the Jewish community, wherever they are.

❤️

I have no idea how the islamic faith has sucked up so much airtime this century. Oh wait...maybe it's because of "honour killings", terrorism and so on?
Not all muslims, of course.
But maybe that's why it's called islamoPHOBIA?

Not sure why antisemitism exists, except perhaps jealousy.

You're going to go wild when you hear what the Christians have been up to.

I know, right? Lunatics!

Like what?

As a starting point, can you provide the number of people killed in the last 20/30 years by Islamic terrorists/regimes vs the number of people killed by Christians?

No because Chrisians have killed way too many to count. Second Iraq war was 500,000 Iraquis wasn't it? We're definitely ahead on points.

But why stop at 20 years? Why don't we talk about the destabilisation of Iran in 1953, when the UK and US (good Christian countries) removed the democratically elected head of state and replaced him with the Shah? A lot of Iranias have died thanks to that decision? Or we could talk about the CIA meddling in the DRC, or the Vietnam war or the partition of India. Or do those not count because the victims weren't from the West?

The Iraq war wasn’t ‘in the name of’ Christianity, therefore whatever the religious beliefs of the men that started it are not relevant. 🤷‍♀️

PP and I talked about this century because that is the time period in which we are living. If you want to do a running total of all the religious killings across the world since the birth of man, Christians are still not responsible for the highest number of deaths in the name of religion as that is not the Christian ethos, especially nowadays. It’s just a bit harder to count.

So it's ok for Christians to kill people - or those deaths somehow don't count- if the killing isn't done in the name of religion? Or is it the skin colour of the people dying that negates their deaths? Terrorists are bad but state sponsored killing is ok? How does that work? If you want to count killings done by Muslims vs killings done by Christians then I think all those deaths are part of the count.

Edited to add: from the point if view of the person being murdered I'm not sure the "why" matters all that much.

Christians had their "holy wars" before machine guns, planes, and weaponised cars existed. "They" also stopped killing in God's name, swapping it for "King and country" for land grabs, oil, ego, and whatever other stupid "reason" inspired their folly.
Men are dangerous predators and can't stop themselves and the rest of us suffer for it.

So it's ok for Christians to kill people

Where did I say that? Don’t start making stuff up. You are just deflecting from PPs comment about bad behaviour carried out by some people in the name of religion that we are inexplicably being prevented from discussing properly. I have no idea about the point of the rest of your post.

We rightfully criticise Christians if they behave badly. We need to be able to criticise all religions or ‘religious’ practices and behaviour. If one subgroup (like extremist Muslims as opposed to moderate Muslims) is disproportionately impacting society, we need to talk about how to deal with the problem.

I see it. In Britain, Jews have to have security guards on their nursery's, primary schools, senior schools, synagogue's and cultural centre. It's an absolute disgrace, that we, as a nation allow, for one race to be treated like this. And for this to go on as normal. I live in north London and I see this everyday. It's shameful.

Ah but on which society? You seem very focused on the idea of Islamic extremism adversely affecting the UK (youre right, it does) with seemingly very little insight into the UK's role in bringing this about. When you meddle in other countries politics for years (and years and years) to spread your religion and fatten your wallet well then the consequences of your actions tend to reverberate for a very long time.

It's a strange one and I'm posting because I'm kind of on the fence here. And because I might be totally wrong. Happy to help enlightened. I'm neither Muslim nor Jewish but I am Asian and I often feel that anti semitism isn't as bad as racism against people of colour or islamophobia (which I experience in spite of not being Muslim but just because of my brown skin colour).

I think there are two reasons why I believe that:

1. Jews can't be identified by appearance alone. Yes, in some cases you can see someone is Jewish based on their clothes but most Jews I have seen in the uk are white (yes I know, not all) so by default I assume experience less of racism because fewer people realise they are Jewish. I don't know if that helps. I guess it might not as you shouldn't have to hide who you are and knowing that people might be racist or prejudiced if they knew you are Jewish probably feels pretty disturbing. But still..wouldn't that reduce at least the number of experiences you have? I don't want to hide the colour of my skin but even if I wanted to I can't.

1. Israel is well known to be a modern, developed country and I think a lot of the British feel that you share similar values. Most people in the UK still seem to think that anyone brown is from a third world primitive backward country and has arrived in the UK with a begging bowl.

The instances of racism against Jews I hear about often seem to skate very closely to criticism of Israel's politics. I am sure there are proper instances of racism, prejudice and discrimination but the people who shout the loudest about anti semitism seem to consider any criticism of netanyahu or Israel policy as anti semitism whereas islamophobia seems a lot more personal and directed at individuals. I am sure anti semitism exists and I am sure it is getting worse (because people confuse israel with Jews) but I do think that islamophobia is a bigger problem than anti-Semitism though I admit I am probably biased because I am more likely to experience islamophobia.

You are saying this as you think of racism through a lens of colour which doesn't apply to antisemitism. Race is a social construct and is not necessarily based on skin colour. I mean, israel is accused of being a racist apartheid state yet you couldn't tell most Jews and Arabs apart based on physical characteristics. The Rwandan genocide was the epitome of racism but nothing ro do with skin colour. Not to speak of the Jewish holocaust where Jews, apparently mostly white passing, were still annihilated.

What's israel being developed got to do with racism against British Jews?

Anti semtiism isn't getting worse becuase people just innocently confuse israel and Jews. Israel is the excuse, the antisemitism was always there. This isn't new for Jews, its literally history repeating itself wirh a new and convenient excuse each time

I don't think you understood my points. Yes I use the words racism and in this case anti semitism interchangeably which might be wrong but I don't think the distinction matters.

Regarding my second point (and also my first actually), Jews I think are awarded much more respect in British society because they are not considered to be from a third world country. They are either mostly of European descent and therefore benefit from being white or from Israel, which I think most British people respect and value more than south Asian countries.

I can imagine that many people are using the excuse of the atrocities committed by israel to be anti Semitic. I won't argue with that and I am also not excusing that.

Umm, why would British Jews be considered anything but British? The original jewish community was here since Cromwells time....only a tiny proportion of British Jews would have emigrated from Israel so how israel might be perceived is irrelevant.

Yes, im glad we agree people are using Israel as an excuse to be antisemitic. There are far worse atrocities committed by countries all over the world, including those purporting to be the country of a certain religion or ethnic group, yet no concomitant rise in racism or hatred towards those groups or their institutions in the UK.

If British Jews are considered to be just British and as British as any other white, church of england, etc, British then what is this thread about????

It doesn't matter that most Jews in the UK are not from Israel. We are talking about perceptions. Do you think think that 2nd or 3rd generation Muslims (or Blacks or other South Asians) are considered as British as white British?

I'm going to bed now. Good night.

Exactly the point. Jews shouldn't be considered anything but British. German Jews in the 1930s also thought they were nothing but German. Loyal, upstanding, assimilated citizens. The Germans othered them nonetheless. You seem to be struggling to understand that this is what has defined Jewish history for 2000 years. What is happening in the UK is not new. You are trying, I hope in good faith, to apply your experience of racism to anti semtiism and while there are some similarities, it's actually very different.

You also seem to be suggesting people in the UK think Jews come from Israel? While this might be true in the historical sense (as in 2000 years ago), i don't think that is what you mean.

I jumped into this thread to make various points but I would also agree that comparing islamophobia and antisemitism isn't overly helpful as they are also quite different and its not a zero sum game.

Yees, according to MI5. Islamic extremism has caused almost all terror related deaths in the U.K. in the last 25 years. The terror threat level is currently ‘substantial’ which means that an attack is likely.

We have more terrorists entering the country - known terrorists have entered on small boats and committed crimes here and radicalised teachers are urging young men to rise up against us in ‘holy war’.

When you appear to be blaming us for that by accusations of ‘meddling in other countries politics’ it sounds like the old line “look what you made me do” that abusers use. How does that help?

It helps by suggesting we should be more cautious before becoming involved in meddling in other countries in future if we don't want to see more of the same. I'm not sure "victim blaming" is something that can be used on an international scale. If we continue to destabilise other countries for our short term profits then the long term harvest we reap is war and terrorism. Just as if we continue to change the climate we will see more international migration. That's not victim blaming, it's cause and effect.

So the question should be the other way round. governments have agreed on a definition of what constitutes antisemitism there’s no such thing for Islamophobia even though way back in the pre-Boris days the Tory party said they were gonna do it but nobody has bothered

Islamophobia is in no way comparable to antisemitism. Islam is a religion and we should have full scope to criticise, mock and satirise the teachings of, scriptures and followers. Same as we would for any religion. This recently coined phrase is an attempt to paint any criticism of Islam or its following in a way that is on par with racism, valid or not.

Antisemitism is racism against the Jewish race.

Agreed with this, and this is a key difference that many are not aware of.

Yes, agree with this. However the government is drafting a definition of Islamophobia that equates it with racism. That will make it very difficult to talk about any aspect of Islam in a negative way, for instance talking about Islamist terrorism, honour killings, FGM or the grooming gangs.

The Free Speech Union are fighting it as it will privilege Islam above all other religions.

A definition of Islamophobia is not needed as we already have laws about discriminating against someone based on their religion. Islam is a religion like Buddhism or Christianity. We don't have laws on Buddhophobia or Christophobia.

We already have laws against discriminating against people because of their race as well.

if people are being treated badly or being discriminated against, dos it really matter whether it’s because of their race or their religion? Surely both are equally as wrong when they end up with people being hurt.