Will antisemitism ever be looked at and dealt with in the same way as Islamophobia is?

[LucyWestenra]

AIBU for thinking it won’t? Because it doesn’t seem to be the case in this country or my home country (Germany).

(I just googled because it didn’t seem right to have antisemitism in lower capitals, but apparently that is correct, as I thought)

Much love to the Jewish community, wherever they are.

❤️

There have been polls in Gaza and the west bank where there are international journalists. Prior to October 2023 there were also foreign journalists in gaza.

And no, women without hijab in gaza most certainly do have consequences. Iran is totally different to Gaza. I've met many iranian women and not one wears a hijab. That's why they need to enforce it by law and it is hated by iranian women. Not the case in Gaza where social pressure means women conform.

Perhaps prior to October 2023, Gazans felt differently about Hamas. Who knows, we’ve got no evidence to tell us how they feel now have we.

What are the consequences for these journalists who are publically not wearing hijab? Given that they continue to do so on a daily basis - I can’t imagine it’s particularly effective.

It is literally law in Iran to wear hijab, with enforceable punishment. Of course you will have some that have rebelled - seems odd that every single Iranian woman you’ve met has been a rebel though. And where are you meeting them? That’s obviously relevant.

im not really sure what you’re trying to tell me with that argument anyway? Iran is a wonderful place for women to live and Gaza isn’t? I’m personally very grateful not to have been born in either.

I can’t agree that it was disingenuous of MyLuckyHelper not to point out that the government voted in by the people of Palestine was a government of Islamist terrorists as that wasn’t quite the conversation we were having.

However, I do think it is a useful point to make to start to answer the question of the dynamic between the Hamas government and its citizens. Another piece of the jigsaw so the teaching in schools if children that Jews to are be hated and killed. Is that a Hamas mandate? Is that something many Palestinians freely participate in or is there resistance?

I looked it up and approx 22% of the population are old enough to have voted in the last election. As pp points out, they may have been between a rock and a hard place with their choices for government - they clearly didn’t like the previous administration but we can’t tell from elections if the current one has public support or not.

The bit that concerns me most is all the ‘pro Palestine’ protestors that appear to have vastly differing levels of understanding of the situation. We have the Islamists who explicitly support Hamas and their ains, and they are bolstered and sanitised by the ‘bekind, Israel are the evil aggressors and deliberately murdering Palestinian children for fun’ - which worryingly also seems to influence our government. The Islamist MPs are also pushing their agenda from inside government.

It is also a serious concern that some British MPs are being elected on a single issue that is nothing to do with British citizens.

Obviously all the Iranian women I've met are outside of Iran and, no, not one wears hijab. They certainly aren't rebels but ordinary middle class Iranians. Iran isn't a lovely place for women due to the regime in place which is not supported by the people - hence why they need laws to wear hijab.

Hamas, in contrast, is very much representative of the conservative Islamic norms of Gazan society and all it implies for women's rights.

And those journalists (maybe one or two) probably jsut take off their hijab to report and put it on to go out - because consequences.

Yes, we do know how Gazans feel. Surveys have been carried out. Support for hamas among gazans has dropped post 7/10 but remained high in west bank. However that's more becuase of tbe disaster that it brought upon Gaza rather than anything moral outrage at Hamas' actions.

Well meeting Iranian women outside of Iran isn't really a point of reference for how women in Iran are living is it?

It's illegal to be gay in Pakistan, but telling me you've met someone outside of Pakistan, who was born there but is gay doesn't disprove the reality in Pakistan. So if you don't like disingenuity, that's probably not a good start.

Do you have any evidence for your claim that journalists are only not wearing hijab on camera and then putting it back on afterwards? Why would they post globally with no hijab, only to put it on in private if they're so worried about the consequences? I have also read the stories of people being punished for not wearing hijab - but then I've read stories about the IDF/the US army/the UK army doing things that don't fall in line with their official policies.

I've already answered the point about surveys. We can't put much stock in surveys carried out in places that punish dissent. I imagine Kim Jong Un is pretty popular in North Korean surveys too... However the latest survey I can find states that: Favorability of the October 7 attack, the belief that Hamas will win the war, and support for Hamas continue to decline, but the overwhelming majority is opposed to Hamas disarmament and does not believe that release of the hostages will bring an end to the war. Nonetheless, about half of Gazans support the anti-Hamas demonstrations and almost half want to leave the Gaza Strip if they could. Support for the two-state solution remains unchanged but support for armed struggle drops.

I presume this is the study you're referring to. It interviewed 440 people in Gaza, out of around two million, I'm not sure it's a particularly representative sample, even if we put full faith in the honesty of their views.

“Not officially like in Iran” is setting a very low bar though. Christians in Gaza have been oppressed by Islamists for years.
https://ucs.nd.edu/learn/palestine/

Do you know how random probability sampling works? It doesn't matter the size of the study population (only if it's too small), whether its 2 million or 20 million or 200 million as long as the sample is selected at random. This is statistics 101.

There isn't one study, many surveys are carried out. Whether they are biased due to hamas being a cruel and repressive organisation is fair enough- yet it seems Gazans feel confident enough to express disapproval of Hamas in a way that West Bankers don't despite Hamas not ruling tbe West Bank so it's hardly north korean style surveillance

And my iranian friends often go back to visit, have friends and family in iran so I think I've got a pretty good idea of how tbey feel about being forced to wear hijab.

In 1948 Palestinian Arabs couldn't declare a state because they couldn't organize themselves and unite to do so.

Fast forward to 2026 and Palestinians apparently cant hold elections because they can't organise themselves along democratic principles with the necessary institutions of state with one party winning and the other going into opposition.

They've had 78 years to build their state in waiting. Maybe if they'd focused on that rather than destroying another state and the 'glorious resistance', there would be a democratic Palestinian state along an Israeli one.

The free palestine lot are just as guilty. Easy enough to shout it but if they can't even hold elections to decide who governs them, how on earth will they be able to operate a state that won't immediately fail? Not qutie as sexy to shout 'build an independent and non corrupt Palestinian civil service' but that's actually the hard work that needs to happen.

Of course irs a low bar, Gaza is governed by a literal terror organisation. I’m not putting it out as a utopia

The idea that Palestinians “should just get themselves together” oversimplifies a situation where the basic conditions for stable state building aren’t in place. You can’t really compare it to a normal country slowly improving over time because Palestinians don’t have full sovereignty, unified territoryor consistent control over borders, movement and security. And governance is still split between the West Bank under the PA & Gaza under Hamas. On top of that repeated conflict, economic restrictions and institutional disruption make long term stable governance extremely difficult. So the issue isn’t a lack of willingness or “organisation,” but a fragmented political system operating under conditions that would undermine effective state building anywhere.

The argument you seem to be putting forward is that Palestinians are collectively responsible for the lack of a functioning independent state and that they can’t be meaningfully separated from the actions of Hamas. If that’s the case, I disagree, and I don’t think the conversation is going to progress further on that basis. To be clear, my view that Palestinian civilians aren’t responsible for the actions of their governing authorities is not an endorsement of Hamas.

"To be clear, my view that Palestinian civilians aren’t responsible for the actions of their governing authorities is not an endorsement of Hamas."

I saw plenty of "Palestinian civilians" lining the streets, whooping and cheering the raped dead body of a teenage music festival goer.

The rot goes deeper than those few Hamas leaders.

How did the Palestinian zionists organzie themselves to have a state?

Of course its a simplification and not the only factor. But one of the reasons why there is no Palestinian state is that they have not put in the necessary tine and effort to building the institutions of state. The Palestinian zionists had basically a shadow state under the ottomans and then the British and self.organzied - that's why they were good to go in 1948. A bit like the Indian national Congress at the same time - because they were focused on building a state too.

Yes, Palestinian society should most certainly do a reckoning and decide to focus on building their state rather than destroying Israel, it hasn't done them much good over the last 80 odd years. Israel is not going away and the refugees will not be returning to Israel but to the new state of palestine. Accept that reality and demonstrate that any new state wont be an iranian vassal or the new isis.

I can totally separate Palestinians from hamas but they are the ones who support it and do not wish to reach a peace agreement with Israel. Thats what the polls show. They honestly believe that if tbey just stick it out, they'll win. ⁰

You’ve essentially taken footage of some individuals celebrating and used that to make a claim about an entire population. That doesn’t logically follow.

I’ve seen people in the UK cheering violence against migrants in the Channel. Does that mean British civilians collectively support migrants drowning? Of course not. We understand that individuals acting in a crowd, especially in moments of anger or propaganda, do not represent an entire population.

The same applies here. You can absolutely find Palestinians who support Hamas, just as you can find Israelis who support their government’s actions or Israelis who oppose them. None of that translates into collective responsibility for millions of people.

And it’s also important to remember that roughly half of Gaza’s population are children, who have no political agency at all. So even if you believe some adults support Hamas, that cannot reasonably be extended to the whole population.

I don’t accept the idea that civilian populations become collectively responsible for the actions of armed groups within them. An innocent Palestinian life is not worth less than an innocent Israeli life. That principle has to hold consistently, even in conflict.

Who's problem is that there isn't a unified political system, Hamas or Fatah or both. They should have sorted themselves out, concentrated their efforts on that.

Both…

what point do you think that makes? That’s their bad governments? Of course they are, was that up for debate?

The point is that if their leaders bothered to actually sort themselves out over the last 80 years instead of hating the neighbour, things would be massively different for them today. Its always soneone ekses fault. Lots of their problems are of the making of their pathetic, hate filled leaders. They could have and should have made better choices. They continued to make choices that ultimately harmed their own citizens, many of those leaders also took billions and squirreled it away in Qatar. Is that stolen money still there, maybe use it to rebuild.

Absolutely. We’re making the same point?

The responsibility to form a stable state falls to the government not the civilians.

Hamas (and Fatah) are bad, shouldn’t be in power & are harming their own citizens with their actions. I don’t think any of that was up for debate. You seem to think I’m saying it’s not Hamas’ fault they’re in this situation - despite me having said noting of the sort.

I'm not. I'm agreeing its the fault of the governance Hamas in Gaza and in the West Bank their governance.

Yes, I'm agreeing that too? What's differing?

Holocaust inversion on a thread about antisemitism. How lovely.

Antisemitism specifically refers to hatred of Jewish people.

What's that got to do with the Jewish community in the UK?

Because someone posted that Jewish communities in the UK have faces a rise in antisemitism since Oct 7th.

@Citruswood what you are doing here, which I have touched on upthread, is amateur etymology to 'all lives matter' jew hate.

Language evolved and the evolution here is not recent. I bet you don't go around challenging references to gay people saying that we mean they are happy?

So the Jewish comminuty has seen a rise in antisemitic attacks ever since they were raped and murdered in an antisemitic attack on October 7th.

Is that what you are confirming?