To think Queen Elizabeth's legacy is going to be seriously harmed by this?

[Gymnopedie]

I mean I doubt he bounded into the palace shouting 'you'll never guess what I did last week'. He will massively have played down the extent of his friendship with Epstein and may even at times have lied about where he was when he was away. It seems his protection officers have some serious questions to answer around this. I doubt anyone in the RF had anything like the full picture. But QE stood by him and I can't see her coming out of this well.

Looking at polls, we're now at less than half of Brits supporting the continuation of the monarchy (with a pretty even split between "get rid" and "don't know or don't care", so "support" does remain the largest of the three groups).

I can only imagine that trending further negatively for the royal family over the coming months and years, so long as Andrew is under the microscope.

Barring another major scandal, I don't expect we'll be rid of them for the next couple of decades at the very least, but I do think the legitimacy of the institution is starting to become a little tenuous.

I think it already has. I’m certain she didn’t know what kind of man he really is and was blinded by her love for him, but she enabled and protected him her whole life. He is a monster, but monsters tend to be made, not born. Her indulgence and tolerance of his appalling behaviour throughout her life allowed him to become the person he is. She’s not wholly responsible, of course she isn’t, but she could have done plenty of things to rein in his behaviour and she could’ve stood in the way of him being given the trade envoy job - Charles certainly tried to - but she approved him for it. And she must’ve known there was a real risk that he would abuse his position and do nothing of any value in that role, because he had absolutely no credentials that made him appropriate for such a role.

That's fair enough tbf and I'd be the same, but I'd know the price was my reputation and moral principles, which is a price I'd happily pay for my kid, but it's absolutely fair game for the criticism to follow particularly when you're part of the ruling elite who's family talk of service to the country and have been gifted a life of luxury from their subjects.

Looking logistically, having to choose both the prime minister and a president in electional cycles has a tendency to produce government impasses. Concentrating both in the hands of a single person can be exceptionally detrimental to democracy. Having one permanent figure with nominal power keeping the fleeting figure with actual power in check seems to be limping along, particularly in first past the post systems. If it can be described as democracy, yeah, it's lousy, but it's the best of the bad lot.

The files relating to Andrew’s time as envoy are sealed until 2065 because his scandals and corruption was off the charts. He is stupid, arrogant, entitled, spoiled, snobbish and greedy- a dangerous combination ripe for blackmail.

The Queen knew who her favourite son was and I wouldn’t be surprised if she had to pay off numerous people to make things go away.

I also believe the hate directed at Harry and Meghan was so off the charts that it had to be a paid for campaign to deflect from Andrew. Given the Epstein network used the media to sow discord and create chaos for political ends incl Brexit , I believe the same media and PR network were used to divert from Andrew to protect the wider Epstein group.

I’m not suggesting QE2 knew about all the methods used to shield Andrew but I think she was ok with people being thrown under the bus to protect him.

It wasn’t her fault her son was a rapist.

It absolutely was her fault that she bailed him out of having to face justice for it. She doesn’t get a free pass because she had a vagina. The Queen being a woman means fuck-all if she was complicit in paying off a rape victim so abusers of other women and girls didn’t have to face the music.

The monarchy is a fundamentally foul institution and it’s about time people stopped pretending the Queen was some cuddly granny who never put a foot wrong just because she had a sandwich with bloody Paddington.

What legacy? Honest question.

Firstly, people need to stop throwing around the word paedophile so casually.

Man has sex with younger woman, “paedophile.” The definition is very clear a paedophile is someone who has an attraction to prepubescent children, and absolutely nowhere is there any evidence that Andrew is a paedophile, and to suggest this fact is in fact not only defamation but is an insult to the victims of actual paedophiles.

Secondly. We all assume that the queen must have known what Andrew was doing by virtue of the fact she was the queen. But how many parents actually do know what their kids are up to? Genuinely?

People are quick to blame the queen, but that is a slippery slope to go down. By that definition if a person commits a crime their whole family must be considered complicit and held accountable accordingly? Except nobody would argue that would they?

Hmmm
I think you’re right but I also think it’s tragic that as everybody else has said they always blame their mother don’t they?

He’s not her youngest son. She was the monarch not just his mother.

Surely the security services knew what he was up to? They’ve all conspired to sweep this under the carpet. It makes you wonder what else they’re hiding.

Andrews staff had to sign NDAs. QE2 paid £12m in hush money. She knew. She’s wasn’t some average clueless cuddly granny. She was the head of state for multiple countries, the head of the church, the head of the army. Anything a top general or Prime Minister knew, she knew.

I think we've known for years that the Queen wasn't the greatest Mother in the world. Charles wrote a book about it (and then got all pissy when his son did the same thing). That said, I don't think that will harm her legacy as the Queen because there was no doubt that she was very committed to the job that she wasn't even born for.

So she can't be blamed for Edward's idiocy, but can she be blamed for Andrew?

Her persona was one of a wise stateswoman who could be relied on to behave with dignity and never put a foot wrong whichever head of state she was with. To give wise counsel to all the Prime Ministers who consulted her. That she represented the best of British. The longer she reigned the stronger that persona became and things like Charles marrying Diana were glossed over, and often reasons found for why she wasn't as wrong as she seemed. The world's media stopped when she died, not just the British press.

I've thought about the point made by @ChangePrivacyQuestion before I started the thread. How far will a mother go to protect her adult children? There have been posts on here where the adult child has been in serious trouble and the OP has asked whether she should cut him (it's usually a him) off. Lots of replies saying that they would only cut their child off for child abuse. Anything else and although they wouldn't like what they'd done that person would still be their son and they would still love them.

She most definitely wasn't some benign OAP.
Legacy = boosting the RF bank accounts.

They are all complicit.

@Gymnopedie yes and all completely manufactured. So utterly depressing.

it's that the best you could find, really?

So no say is better than having a say? Democracy not being perfect means that monarchy is the best of a bad lot?

interesting conclusion to come to.

Many mothers will go the whole way to protect their children and can't see a thing wrong with their adult child's behaviour.
I don't feel it counts as being a paedophile - the females were over the age of consent in this country. Agree it is unpleasant and exploitative and very sad for the young people involved.

A trafficked minor cannot consent.

A trafficked non minor is also vulnerable

The deification of QEII is mad. She knew exactly who he was, she just didn’t care because these girls were nothing to her.

None of us are anything to them. If you think they give a toss about their ‘subjects’ you need your head seen to.

The late Queen was emotionally stunted, calculating and cold as a witch’s tit. Just like the rest of her weird inbred family. This sordid and squalid affair may well be the end of them and their unearned privilege - we can hope, at least.