Are all fathers creepy?

[Alex122022]

My experience in a different thread (on swimming pool changing room etiquette) has been quite interesting: there seems to be a widely shared opinion that all men are creeps and there are never any innocent explanations for their behaviour.

While I completely agree that a father in a women's changing room - especially when there are older girls - is inappropriate, I can easily see how this could happen without any ulterior motive. Be it simply ignorance or lack of judgement.

I experienced the same on playgrounds: playing hide & seek with my daughter? Mothers approach my DW and tell her that "a perv" is watching the children. Playing with DD - well meaning mothers asking her whether she is ok or needs help.

AIBU to think this is a bit excessive?

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, theres a fair chance that its a duck.

Same with MRAs.

Why only 'fathers?'

Weird thread.

It’s rare that I want public upvotes on MN. I do for this post.

Along comes a man cantering his feelings and claiming ‘NAMALT’

Thank you for being so understanding.

Isn't it the point to try to listen, understand and improve? Where I live, the pool for swimming has a single changing area, so perhaps I simply misunderstood the original problem.

I don't think fathers deserve any special treatment - and I find it actually rather embarrassing. I was raised by a single father - so for me it is actually quite normal that a father is involved. But: it seems that among some people this raises suspicions.

But I can obviously never experience how women feel - so the only way to learn is simply to ask. And while it's easy to make such an effort when I'm on my own, it's much more difficult with a child.

It's quite obvious that going in female-only spaces without a very good reason is not appropriate - but I've noticed some hostility outside as well, and I simply would try to understand who to address this and ideally find a way that no-one feels uncomfortable.

I had a set to with a man in the New Look changing rooms once. He kept coming in and out bringing different clothes into his DD.

The flimsy curtains don’t fully cover each cubical and my DD was just in her knickers and felt really uncomfortable him being able to see her.

I told him he had to leave and not come in again. He tried to argue that as it doesn’t specifically state they are female changing rooms then he is entitled to stay as much I was.

I asked him why he even wants to be in there knowing he is making all the young girls in there uncomfortable. He still refused to budge. I had to get a member of staff and he started arguing with them too! In the end he stormed out of the shop with his mortified DD.

Creepy male entitlement at its finest.

OP, your DD will see this type of behaviour from men around her all the time once she hits puberty. This is why she will grow up not trusting men.

Where is your type?

One does not need "experience" for "understanding". I don't need to be at risk of being assaulted to understand that a person who is at risk is worried.

What you need to listen to, understand and ACCEPT is the fact that most women can’t afford the risk of getting to know you or to give you the benefit of the doubt. Especially when it comes to themselves/their kids.

It’s not personal. It’s not about you.

That sounds grim. My DH never even went into the clothes shop that our DD went into when she was picking clothes and changing. What kind of fucking weirdo wants to be in the WOMENS changing rooms, 2 feet away from random women he doesn't know, who are half naked - or more than half naked - behind a flimsy curtain? Fucking pervert.

Of course - and I don't quite understand why the man couldn't just simply leave when asked to do so.

I said experiences

No - you didn't. You said I do not understand because I don't have the experience.

He might just be ignorant, used to pools were mixed changing was common or simply did not think.

And therein lies the crux of the problem. Your privilege allows you and vast numbers of other men to be ‘ignorant’ and ‘not think’ about such things.

The world is undeniably full of creepy, perverted and predatory men. But they are largely ignored, explained away or unnoticed by all the other men who are not part of that cohort.

Women are taught to be vigilant from a very young age, and from a safety perspective our reality is very different to the delightfully carefree and oblivious one most men occupy.

If you really want to understand the systemic nature of the problem - and why your post comes off so wide-eyed and tone deaf on this predominantly female forum - you could do worse than re-read @frozendaisy’s post until it properly sinks in.

You have zero idea of the experiences of an adult human female and all that entails.

She said experiences

reading comprehension may be another of your struggles.

Alicorn1707 · Today 17:35
"Actually, I do understand the reason why women are more wary"
Actually ** no, you do not.
You have zero idea of the experiences of an adult human female and all that entails.

The best way to defuse a situation where women feel uncomfortable is don't create the uncomfortable situation in the first place

Astonishingly for you, @Alex122022 , you don't have to go into a women's toilet or changing room.

Take your child into the men's toilet or changing room and use the cubicles. Shield their eyes if you worry they may see something they shouldn't.

And in terms of worrying how hard life may be for your daughter if she thinks all men are creeps, it is much, much worse when she finds out how creepy some men can be and she isn't prepared for it. She does need to know how to keep herself safe. From men.

Just because you haven't been a creep does not mean women are hysterical men haters. I would bet the house that you know of a time when at least one of your male friends has overstepped the mark. Male creepiness is something for men to sort out and stop happening.

But do you not see how your concern about your daughter being in a changing room with you and a bunch of men is not solved by you (a man) going into a women's changing room? You instantly change the problem from yours to solve to something for all the women to solve.

Work it out for yourself. Stop making women solve your problems for you.

Please don't take this the wrong way: but considering a father goes with DD clothes shopping (and yes, some fathers have to do that): how does one best do this - e.g. get different sizes to the cubicle? Is this something the shop attendants do?

It's different in children's clothes store - so I haven't had that experience yet, but I can see the problems.

OP just give it a rest. It has been clearly and accurately explained to you why men are treated with suspicion.
As men we, in all probability, have never been leered at, inappropriately touched talked down to or had to put up with all manner of sexist behaviour.
I single parent two daughters, so have been on occasion the only man at a parent and child event. I know I am not a risk to the other children but the other parents can't know that, so I behave with caution, it is sad that I have to but that I have to is down to the behaviours of other men.

Exactly this.
I am wary of men and I think the world would be better if more men behaved like decent fathers.

You don't understand at all.
It's not just about assault. It's about privacy and dignity. It's about not wanting to change around men, not even someones dad!

It's about a man deciding to choose the shower right beside you in a communal scenario and deciding to wash his bits, making sure to expose himself while he's at it.

Nothing wrong with getting the clothes but wait outside the cubicle.
If your child is too young to do this then they don't need to be in a dressing room trying on clothes to be fair. Most parents know what size fits when they are young and do not really need to try them on.

Yes, the attendants do or the child comes to the door. It's not hard.

A simple guide for men...
Do you want men to behave towards/around your daughters in that way.

If the answer is no... then you know your behaviour is wrong.

Says a lot about you that you are more worried about what women think than the men who could actually harm her.