To think that if you commit a male crime, you should do male time, even if you identify as a woman?

[TheAvidAmberPeer]

I know this is a sensitive topic but I’ve been thinking about how justice systems handle trans women who commit serious crimes, especially violent or sexual offences, and whether it’s fair to house them in women’s prisons. To me, if you were born male and commit a crime typically associated with male offenders, particularly one involving violence against women, it seems like common sense that you should serve time in a male facility. Identity doesn’t erase biology or risk in those cases.

AIBU to think fairness and safety, especially for vulnerable female prisoners, should come before ideology?

I think that this is a very old and much covered debate on here already.

Only in Scotland in the rest of the UK rape requires a penis anything else is serious sexual assault

Only in England and Wales and they are not segregated from women for anything other than sleeping and showering.
No man even with his penis removed should be in a woman's jail as they are men!
Oh and a man with a grc will be placed in a woman's jail on a womans wing even if hes raped a woman with his intact penis as hes legally female

Surely the prison policy now needs to be revised in light of the Supreme Court judgment.

Something, something, EHRC guidelines, something, something, be kind.
Something, something, weasel words.

That’s usually the response.
As a poster (on another thread rightly noted): if the SC decision had gone the other way, those new procedures, etc, would have been enabled on the same bloody day!

@MissScarletInTheBallroom FWS are taking the Scottish government back to crt over men in women's prisons when they win it should force all UK governments to remove all men including those with a GRC from all women jails, though I expect the SNP to appeal

I think a male should do male time regardless of whether the crime was male, female or furry

I don’t care if he wants to wear lipstick and sanitary towels

He’s a man

What3words username plopper.

It's so fucking tedious that they keep having to go to court to get people whose salaries are paid by the taxpayer to respect what they now know perfectly fucking well is THE LAW.

There need to be harsher penalties for people continuing to knowingly break the law at this point. I would suggest a hefty personal fine and a ban on ever working in the public sector again.

OP, men should serve time men's prisons, no matter if they pretend to be women, or even if they have had surgery.
There could be segregated units for them, similar to the ones for sex offenders.

But no men in women's prisons is the only acceptable system (fair and safe, as you say) I don't know why we have to keep saying this.

Err no. rape requires a penis according to the law. No woman has a penis.

“No woman has a penis”? I’m not sure that argument follows the logic adopted by most of the posters on this thread. If a man cannot become a woman by being a trans woman, he remains a man despite dressing and living as a woman. I understand that to be the reasoning of most on this thread. By that reasoning, a woman who becomes a trans man and has a penis created as part of that transition, remains a woman and has a penis.

Except it's not a penis, its a bit of flesh surgically grafted on to resemble one.

A roled up flesh flap is not a penis in anyway shape or meaning of the word so as stated previously no woman has a penis

That is your opinion, not the law

Well until someone actually manages to use one to penetrate a non-consenting partner, it's entirely hypothetical. If and when that happens, a judge will have to make a decision as to whether it is a penis or not.

Personally, I am always alert to the possibility of being raped, but the possibility of being non-consensually penetrated by a surgically constructed penis which has to be manually inflated before it can be used is not something which keeps me awake at night. I can't really see it working from a logistical point of view. And as far as I am aware, trans men as a group aren't committing a lot of violent crimes.

Plenty of men are vulnerable and we send them to prison even though we know they may be in danger.

No matter what surgeries and hormone treatments the individual has undergone they still retain male strength, muscle mass, lung capacity.

Women's prisons are not really segregated in the way the men's estate is. You could be jailed for shoplifting and find yourself sharing space with Rose West.

Men's prisons have different security rankings depending on the crime / length of sentence. They also have vulnerable prisoner wings and can segregate individuals if need be.

The male estate is much more suited to look after a 'trans woman' prisoner.

Yes it is the law unless you live in Scotland so no a flesh tube/flap stitched onto a woman's body is not a penis

Why can't they be held in wings in men's prisons? Why aren't you thinking of the safety of the women prisoners here? Don't you think they matter?

And how are we supposed to tell the difference between the 'real' and 'pretend' trans identifying men?

'Dressing and living as a woman' is a nonsense phrase when applied to a man.

No, the appendage that trans identifying women can acquire surgically is not a penis.

Males that have committed a crime and serving a prison sentence should serve this in a male prison and on release if in supported/probation accommodation they should not be in a female only placement.

The safety of females should always be considered before harming males feelings

Why does the type of crime matter that much?

Even if it's an 'ok crime' then he'd still have to share a cell and facilitates with a woman who is there against her own free violation and isn't in a position to object.

The women still deserve their own rights. They are not there to facilitate his demands. They are not service humans. They are very vulnerable women.

Well males usually get shorter sentences than women for similar or worse crimes… so I think they should do more time really

It's not at all complicated. It couldn't be more simple.

Men never become women.

No amount of hormone therapy, surgery or length of time "transitioning" will ever turn a man into a woman.

A very small number of men can "pass" as a woman if you don't look too closely and don't spend more than five minutes in their company. In a prison environment they will have no chance of fooling anyone.

Real, actual women should not have to share women-only spaces with men. Even women who have committed crimes deserve dignity and respect.

Men who think they might be in danger in prison have a number of options:

1. Don't commit crime
2. If you must commit crime, accept that going to prison might involve some risk.
3. Don't pretend you are a woman while in prison.

Even if that were true (I’d agree there are likely to be ‘tens’ that would pass in the street with absolutely no double-take from people or with them triggering the ‘uncanny valley’ response, certainly not thousands) they’d soon be seen for what they are in a prison shower block or cell.

Proportionally very few trans identifying men bother with full surgery. Many are heterosexual and it would be unsafe and fundamentally unfair for the women they’re imprisoned with to have them on their block.

By all means segregate trans identifying men onto their own part of the prison estate, but leave women out of it.