To think that if you commit a male crime, you should do male time, even if you identify as a woman?

[TheAvidAmberPeer]

I know this is a sensitive topic but I’ve been thinking about how justice systems handle trans women who commit serious crimes, especially violent or sexual offences, and whether it’s fair to house them in women’s prisons. To me, if you were born male and commit a crime typically associated with male offenders, particularly one involving violence against women, it seems like common sense that you should serve time in a male facility. Identity doesn’t erase biology or risk in those cases.

AIBU to think fairness and safety, especially for vulnerable female prisoners, should come before ideology?

Umm. I didn’t say the words in bold. You must be getting confused. And how do you know what definition of hate that poster is using? For all you know, that poster might have a totally different definition ,and in their opinion,hate means really really like. Almost like you’ve claimed there are different definitions of male, female, man, woman and sex.

As many other groups as are forcing themselves into spaces designated for groups they objectively don't belong to and claiming to be the victims when those groups say no.

Again, you’re attributing one poster’s words to a different poster as if they’re one and the same. Stop putting words in women’s mouths @Tandora

Of course.

Being trans is an entirely separate condition to dressing up for sexual gratification. They are not the same thing all. It's like conflating autism and anxiety.

As for people claiming to be trans for nefarious reasons - I think that this is a bit of a bogeyman tbh - although there are some isolated cases where this no doubt happens.

That goes for all kinds of conditions. There are people who pretend to have cancer to extort money from benefactors. There are people who pretend to be disabled to get more money begging on the streets. Etc. It doesn't call into question the realty of cancer as a condition or the fact that a lot of people actually have it.

a trans woman has a profound, pervasive and unrelenting understanding of self as female

Oh aye, and is that what Karen White, Isla Bryson and Katie Dolatowski were feeling as they raped and sexually assaulted all those women and girls? A profound sense of being female?

Or were they "feeling female" in a more literal sense, that they were physically touching a female person who did not consent?

Which is Isla Bryson @Tandora?

Hmm OK, so how can we stop men who like dressing up as women for sexual gratification from using women's spaces, or indeed getting gender recognition certificates?

I know you didn't - but you are part of a collective group of people who are participating in, promoting, and condoning this type of speech all over mumsnet, and bullying those who speak out against it through a combination of attack and deflection. Your post I replied to was an example of the deflection tactics.

I don't know enough about Isla Bryson to say. Isla Bryson has been convicted of some horrible crimes and trans or not, the response should be the same.

So you don’t agree with Stonewall’s ‘Acceptance without exception’ slogan or the idea that any man should just be able to walk into a female space & claim to be trans, then?

Isla Bryson is a convicted rapist, how much more of a character reference do you need to take a view on whether he actually "feels female" deep down inside his sparkly pink soul?

If a man wants to walk into a female space he doesn't have to pretend to be trans, he can just walk in.
Pretending to be trans would be an extremely elaborate , conspicuous, necessarily premediated, and entirely unnecessary strategy with all kind of unwanted consequences/ complications for the perpetrator.
Meanwhile men who's goal is harassment and abuse can walk into a toilet a changer, opportunistically, wherever and whenever they please.

The hypothetical you are presenting is just not a logical line of concern. There's no evidence base or logic to it whatsoever.

If only there was a way to tell the difference.

Well, he can't anymore because everyone will now know that he is not allowed to be in there and we can take steps to remove ourselves from that potentially dangerous situation.

Which is something we couldn't do before the Supreme Court judgment when we had to pretend that Isla Bryson is a woman and accept that he was allowed to use women's toilets.

Like it or not, the ideology you promote directly resulted in women and girls being sexually assaulted.

Just to clarify I said I hate the bastards. The context is I hate biological men who enter female only spaces and expect society to pretend they are women.

I thought the whole “Tru-Trans” thing was supposed to be transphobic hate speech?!

Segregating those who ‘pass’ from those who don’t, or those who dress up for kicks vs those who have those ‘authentic feminine feelz’ - all big no-no’s too, aren’t they?

I think Tandora needs to report to a re-education camp before they’re reported for their hate crimes 🙄

If you have to pretend people said things they didn’t to articulate your (badly made out) points, maybe have a think about whether you can argue this case at all.

Listen you need to stop getting your information from social media, and actually inform yourself on the science of this subject.

It's not about passing - passing has nothing to do with whether someone is trans or not.
A trans woman is a person who recognises/ understands herself to be female, despite having been born with observable male physical characteristics.
It is a naturally occurring type of neurodevelopmental, cognitive difference - pervasive and persistent. It's not related to whether a person 'passes' or not.

Dressing up for kicks is not the same as being trans. Plenty of people dress up for kicks who are not trans.

He also sexually harassed the young women on his beauty therapy course IIRC who were too intimidated by his “trans” status to say no to him.

Q. How do we tell the difference between a man dressing for kicks and a genuine transwoman when that person is in the female changing rooms?

Q2 why segregate on between men and women when the difference between man and woman is feelings? There is no need for what we previously called sex segregation and what now is deemed bigotry?

We know it's not about passing.

But you can't make law and policy - particularly law and policy that directly infringes women's rights - based on how a man claims to feel inside.

That is monstrously misogynistic.

The answer to Q1 is obvious, although @Tandora will never say it out loud.

We let in every potential pervert and rapist, because the safety and dignity of women and girls is less important than the special feelings of a handful of special men. Ten year old girls being raped in women's toilets is a risk society should be willing to take, but a special man with special feelings being excluded from the women's toilets because we can't see his special feelings is not, apparently.

Obviously you don’t have to answer this @Tandora, but assuming when you said upthread that you were female that you meant you weren’t trans, what’s your skin in this game? Why is it so important to you that the likes of Dr Upton should be accepted as women?

Btw, @tandora,as a parent and sibling to autistic people I find your equation of transwomen, genuine and not, to autistic people extremely offensive. Both my child as my sibling go out of their way to learn societal cues on what to do in circumstances so not to inconvenience other people. Their whole therapy is based on learning to fit into a neurotypical society whilst being their own typical self, the exact opposite to transwomen who want society to adapt to them, whilst negatively impacting whole groups of people. My child and sibling know better than to do that and that leads to acceptance, not the pushback transwomen experience.
So please stop forceteaming people with autism with people who want society to revolve around them

Q. You can't. But you don't need to - it's an entirely hypothetical problem that you have constructed in your mind. Men and women's changers have existed since public changers became a thing. People respect these conventions, with trans people always using those according to whether they have socially/ medically transitioned or not.
Cases of assault in these areas are rare (most violence against women/girls happens in other types of settings) - but they do happen sometimes, of course, and they are terrible, and inexcusable, and every single case is one case too many. But there is no logical reason or evidence base for thinking this will happen less if we bar trans people from using toilets according to their gender.

Q. I don't think the differences between men and women are about feelings. The vast majority of people are not trans. Most people are (cisgender) men and women which are categories that map onto important, social and biological differences (although these aren't as mutually exclusive and binary as people like to pretend they are - and overstating difference is also a means of maintaining patriarchy).

There are also a small minority of people who are transgender who have a naturally occurring type of neurodevelopmental, cognitive difference which means that they recognise/ understand themselves to be a different sex from the sex that corresponds to their physical attributes as observed at birth. We don't know exactly what causes this neurodevelopmental difference, like other types of difference, it's likely to have complex biological/ environmental/developmental underpinnings. Like autism there is evidence that suggests a genetic component tied to sex hormone signalling genes that operate systemically across the body and also within the structures of the brain. Supressing or denying this cognitive experience can be psychologically torturous for the individual, resulting in extreme distress and mental illness, and psychological therapies aimed at forcing the individual to accept their 'birth sex', can be deeply harmful rather than helpful. These people need to be accommodated in society.

I know there is a very popular narrative afloat these days that separate facilities for men and women are about safeguarding so that men can be separated from women. But the truth is that these spaces are not locked or policed - they work according to social convention - anyone who has predatory intentions can enter at ease.
They aren't really about 'preventing violence and pregnancy (I lol when that one gets brought up) at all , but rather (heteronormative) social norms and conventions around privacy and dignity.
Violence/ harassment does increase in shared spaces (by which I mean shared between all men and women, not trans-inclusive separate facilities) because of the novelty/ transgression of being in a space that runs counter to the usual social norms/ ideas about privacy / dignity.
The best policy, therefore, proportionate to everyone's needs is to maintain these spaces but to accommodate the small numbers of transitioned trans people who also need a dignified, private and safe place to use facilities. Their also may be some specialist services that should be reserved for female people, with shared physical characteristics - such as specialist rape support or medical services, just as there are sometimes services just for disabled women, or black women etc, to meet their needs.